I have been given one of these trees as a birthday present. Any planting
& care tips please


--
chas379

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:24:39 +0000, chas379
<chas379.28s2w1 [at] gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:

>
>I have been given one of these trees as a birthday present. Any planting
>& care tips please

Give it _plenty_ of space!


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

"Chris Hogg" <me [at] privacy.net> wrote in message
news:qe41825qegoagg2jiavcts6hnsfqul8san [at] 4ax.com...
> On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:24:39 +0000, chas379
> <chas379.28s2w1 [at] gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >I have been given one of these trees as a birthday present. Any planting
> >& care tips please
>
> Give it _plenty_ of space!
>
>
> --
> Chris
>
> E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I find them to be quite the ugliest of all trees. It will have been
very expensive and will soon need much space. Less after fifty years or so
as lower branches will have fallen and the crown will be quite proud.
I inherited several that were planted in 1840 and they have never been
anything other than an eye-sore~~ no forgiving aspects at all.
Best Wishes Brian.

Brian wrote:
> "Chris Hogg" <me [at] privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:qe41825qegoagg2jiavcts6hnsfqul8san [at] 4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:24:39 +0000, chas379
> > <chas379.28s2w1 [at] gardenbanter.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I have been given one of these trees as a birthday present. Any planting
> > >& care tips please
> >
> > Give it _plenty_ of space!
> >
[...]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I find them to be quite the ugliest of all trees. It will have been
> very expensive and will soon need much space. Less after fifty years or so
> as lower branches will have fallen and the crown will be quite proud.
> I inherited several that were planted in 1840 and they have never been
> anything other than an eye-sore~~ no forgiving aspects at all.

Definitely. If your garden is a couple of acres, you could plant the
thing in the farthest corner and try to forget about it, but your
descendants will despise you. It looks silly as a pup, and ugly as sin
when mature. It has no garden merit whatever, and ecologically it's a
complete waste of space, since we have no species which depend on it.
In South America a large spread of the things is dramatic, but one on
its lonesome in the wrong part of the world is ridiculous. I'd "most
unfortunately, and I really can't understand how it happened, it must
be this dreadful weather we've been having, or maybe the nursery let
some disease get in", let it die in its pot. Better still, you could
just explain to whoever gave you the present that everybody you've
consulted says it's too big for your garden and will result in legal
action from the neighbours (which is the truth), so you hope they'll
understand if you take it back to the nursery and swap it. If you want
a big tree, plant an oak: British wildlife will thank you.

In Brian's position, I'd have cut them down ages ago -- and I'm
sentimental about trees: I completely redesigned a corner of the garden
because two wild cherries sprang up where I wasn't planning trees at
all.

--
Mike.

chas379 <chas379.28s2w1 [at] gardenbanter.co.uk> writes
>
>I have been given one of these trees as a birthday present. Any planting
>& care tips please
>
>
Let's assume it's a welcome present, in which case the other two replies
I've seen won't be much help to you.

Main point to note is that they are susceptible to cold winter winds
while still small, so erect a small windbreak around it come the autumn
- twigs stuck in the ground with branches interwoven, for example. Do
this for the first two winters, then a slightly less effective windbreak
for the third.

It seems to like quite moist neutral to slightly acid clay soil - I've
no idea how it copes on different soils.

First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so give
it plenty of space - don't plant it near your house (or your
neighbour's). You may have to decide that you'll grow it for its
architectural form when young, but steel yourself to remove it once it's
getting too big.
--
Kay

K wrote:

> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so give
> it plenty of space - don't plant it near your house (or your
> neighbour's). You may have to decide that you'll grow it for its
> architectural form when young, but steel yourself to remove it once it's
> getting too big.

And they do get *huge*. I believe they're also prone to blowing over in
high winds once they get large.

I rather like them -- it's impressive to see something growing that
(allegedly) hasn't changed significantly for millions of years, but
they're probably more suited to parks and very large gardens.

James

"James Fidell" <james [at] fidell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e6284g$d4p$1 [at] barnfelder.cloud9.co.uk...
>K wrote:
>
>> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
>> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so give
>> it plenty of space - don't plant it near your house (or your
>> neighbour's). You may have to decide that you'll grow it for its
>> architectural form when young, but steel yourself to remove it once it's
>> getting too big.
>
> And they do get *huge*. I believe they're also prone to blowing over in
> high winds once they get large.
>
> I rather like them -- it's impressive to see something growing that
> (allegedly) hasn't changed significantly for millions of years, but
> they're probably more suited to parks and very large gardens.
>
> James
Don't allow the personal preduces of a number of group members get you down.
Monkey puzzles don't grow that quickly. We have one in our garden that has
put on less than 30cm in two years and will still be managable long after I
am gone.( In 20 years time hopefully)
Have a look at large scale trees and form your own opinion.
I have seen fine trees growing in Durham, Cheshire and now in Devon so they
can't be that sensitive to cold winds etc. -not like our other auracaria the
Norfolk Island Pine, which doesn't like being moved out of doors.
Monkey puzzles appear unattractive if the top branches crowd together.
Perhaps the experts could give some instruction as to how to avoid
this-rather than carp on in such a negative sadly British way!
I have observed good looking monkey puzzles in gardens with well drained
even sandy soils. In Cheshire some mushroom shaped, crowded specimens around
40-50 years old were growing on clay surrounded by marshy fields.
Regards
David T

david taylor <davidtaylor1 [at] onetel.com> writes
>
>"James Fidell" <james [at] fidell.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:e6284g$d4p$1 [at] barnfelder.cloud9.co.uk...
>>K wrote:
>>
>>> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
>>> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so give
>>> it plenty of space - don't plant it near your house (or your
>>> neighbour's). You may have to decide that you'll grow it for its
>>> architectural form when young, but steel yourself to remove it once it's
>>> getting too big.
>>
>> And they do get *huge*. I believe they're also prone to blowing over in
>> high winds once they get large.
>>
>> I rather like them -- it's impressive to see something growing that
>> (allegedly) hasn't changed significantly for millions of years, but
>> they're probably more suited to parks and very large gardens.
>>
>> James
>Don't allow the personal preduces of a number of group members get you down.
>Monkey puzzles don't grow that quickly. We have one in our garden that has
>put on less than 30cm in two years

Blimey! What are you doing to the poor thing! ;-)

> and will still be managable long after I
>am gone.( In 20 years time hopefully)
>Have a look at large scale trees and form your own opinion.
>I have seen fine trees growing in Durham, Cheshire and now in Devon so they
>can't be that sensitive to cold winds etc.

As I said, in the snipped part of my post, they are susceptible when
young. They're not cheap to buy, so to gloss over this susceptibility,
when it's so easy to protect a young plant from the wind, is unfair to
the poster, who ends up paying £15 or so only to see the plant go brown
and wither in its first spring. As to their susceptibility when mature
to strong (not necessarily cold) winds, I can't say.

> -not like our other auracaria the
>Norfolk Island Pine, which doesn't like being moved out of doors.
>Monkey puzzles appear unattractive if the top branches crowd together.

That's the final mature form

>Perhaps the experts could give some instruction as to how to avoid
>this-rather than carp on in such a negative sadly British way!
>I have observed good looking monkey puzzles in gardens with well drained
>even sandy soils. In Cheshire some mushroom shaped, crowded specimens around
>40-50 years old were growing on clay surrounded by marshy fields.

If you equate 'good looking' with 'having branches all the way up the
trunk', you'll get this while the tree is relatively immature, but
eventually it loses its bottom branches and just retains the crown.

Interestingly, the plants for a future' database says it can be
coppiced!
--
Kay

The message <448d68ad [at] 212.67.96.135>
from "david taylor" <davidtaylor1 [at] onetel.com> contains these words:

> >K wrote:
> >
> >> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
> >> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so give
> >> it plenty of space -

> Don't allow the personal preduces of a number of group members get you
> down.
> Monkey puzzles don't grow that quickly. We have one in our garden that has
> put on less than 30cm in two years

How long has it been planted there?

Kays comment above is an accurate decription of the classic UK growth
pattern in monkey puzzle trees; that's hardly "personal prejudice".

Janet.

Janet.

--
Isle of Arran Open Gardens weekend 21,22,23 July 2006
5 UKP three-day adult ticket (funds go to island charities) buys entry
to 26 private gardens

"Janet Baraclough" <janet.and.john [at] zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303039303239448DB47444 [at] zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <448d68ad [at] 212.67.96.135>
> from "david taylor" <davidtaylor1 [at] onetel.com> contains these words:
>
>> >K wrote:
>> >
>> >> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
>> >> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so
>> >> give
>> >> it plenty of space -
>
>> Don't allow the personal preduces of a number of group members get you
>> down.
>> Monkey puzzles don't grow that quickly. We have one in our garden that
>> has
>> put on less than 30cm in two years
>
> How long has it been planted there?
>
> Kays comment above is an accurate decription of the classic UK growth
> pattern in monkey puzzle trees; that's hardly "personal prejudice".
>
> Janet.
>
> Janet.
>
> --
> My tree is four years old. I bought it for £6.50 at Morrey's nursery,
> Kelsall in Cheshire and commented to Mr.Morrey junior that Endsleigh and
> other garden centres were selling trees of similar size for £15-£20.
I am not aware of the 'classic UK' pattern but have seen several trees with
well spaced branches up to around 70ft high in the North West of England and
in North Wales.
The last mentioned at Wrexham Crematorium prompted a corny joke when I
mentioned it in a similar correspondence earlier in the year.
Regards
David T

The message <448e9413 [at] 212.67.96.135>
from "david taylor" <davidtaylor1 [at] onetel.com> contains these words:


> "Janet Baraclough" <janet.and.john [at] zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3130303039303239448DB47444 [at] zetnet.co.uk...
> > The message <448d68ad [at] 212.67.96.135>
> > from "david taylor" <davidtaylor1 [at] onetel.com> contains these words:
> >
> >> >K wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> First couple of years it'll be still settling, but by the time you've
> >> >> had it 4 or 5 years it'll be growing 1-3 ft in height each year, so
> >> >> give
> >> >> it plenty of space -
> >
> >> Don't allow the personal preduces of a number of group members get you
> >> down.
> >> Monkey puzzles don't grow that quickly. We have one in our garden that
> >> has
> >> put on less than 30cm in two years
> >
> > How long has it been planted there?
> >
> > Kays comment above is an accurate decription of the classic UK growth
> > pattern in monkey puzzle trees; that's hardly "personal prejudice".
> >
> > Janet.

> > My tree is four years old.
> I am not aware of the 'classic UK' pattern

Kay just told you, and I confirmed what she said. Monkey puzzles do
next to nothing above ground for the first few years..as your has done.
Then they start growing very fast, maybe a metre per year.
IOW, your advice to the OP that they don't grow fast, is just plain
misleading. The speed of growth and ultimate size means they are not
really a suitable tree to plant in small urban gardens.

but have seen several trees with
> well spaced branches up to around 70ft high in the North West of
> England and
> in North Wales.

There are many here in west Scotland, larger than that. Once they
reach full size they start shedding the lower branches in succession,
so old specimens usually have 50 ft or so of bald trunk at the bottom.

Going back to an earlier point, they are very windhardy even in very
exposed , clifftop positions here.

Janet

--
Isle of Arran Open Gardens weekend 21,22,23 July 2006
5 UKP three-day adult ticket (funds go to island charities) buys entry
to 26 private gardens

Janet Baraclough Wrote:
> There are many here in west Scotland, larger than that. Once they
> reach full size they start shedding the lower branches in succession,
> so old specimens usually have 50 ft or so of bald trunk at the bottom.
>
> Going back to an earlier point, they are very windhardy even in very
> exposed , clifftop positions here.
>
> Janet

I have seen monkey puzzles in the wild, both in very wet forest
locations in Chile, and drier steppe-margin locations on the eastern
slopes of the Andes in Argentina, at altitudes of up to 1,500m. In the
wild, they only grow in a narrow latitudinal band, probably not much
more than 250km from north to south, and only in the Andes and parallel
ranges in the narrow strip from there to the Pacific. Typical locations
of the very limited residual populations are both very windy and prone
to snow for up to half the year.

I think it is sad to grow them as single specimens. They naturally
grow in groves, because they are dioecious (separate male and female
plants) and pollination is over relatively short distances, I have seen
maximum 100-200 metres quoted. So they aren't going to spread back into
their former much more extensive range without human intervention.
Unfortunately they don't usually flower until maturity, and can't be
sexed (at least not easily) until they do flower.

In the Parque Natural Villarrica, a very wet location on the slopes of
a volcano with an icecap in Chile, they grow up to not far from the
edge of the icecap, and not much lower down I have seen them with
trunks about 1.5metres in diameter, very attractive as structural
timber, which explains why they have been so widely felled and are now
restricted to a few protected locations. Here they grow in a mixed
forest with equally huge, or even larger, Nothofagus dombeyi, a large
evergreen southern beech which also grows easily in this country, and
is I think a plant association I think it would be nice to match for a
large planting here.

Monkey puzzles have huge kernels, about 5-7cm long, up to 2cm thick.
They have thin but very tough casings which need a lot of
soaking/cooking to be able to cook through and soften the casings
sufficiently to be able to remove them. In April (the local autumn) I
have bought them in the market in Puerto Montt (along side murtas, the
delicious fruit of Ugni molinae, alias Chilean cranberries, which were
apparently Queen Victoria's favourite fruit; there used to be
commercial production in SW England, not so easy to grow in Bucks I am
discovering). I cooked them, and shredded my hands peeling them even
after 2 hours in a pressure cooker. They taste like chestnuts. The
Pehuenche are an ethnic subgroup of the native Mapuche people of this
part of the world who specialised in subsisting on monkey puzzle
kernels. In their language, Mapudungun, pehuen=monkey puzzle,
che=people (hence Che Guevara, "che" having been adopted in parts of
Spanish-speaking population, especially in NW Argentina, as a term
meaning something like "my mate", it isn't actually a name).

The juvenile monkey puzzle has a single upward growing tip, and retains
lower branches, and remains in this juvenile form for many years,
typically 30-50. As it matures, the top becomes rounded, even fairly
flat, and there is no longer a single leading tip, and, as said above,
the lower branches are shed. If you cut out the leader of a juvenile
monkey puzzle, it will send up multiple new growing tips, rather to my
surprise; I saw this when someone near me, who had one growing too
close to his house, butchered it in this fashion. (There is an
interesting analogy here with those peculiar NZ trees with persistent
juvenile forms, the lancewoods, Pseudopanax spp., which will also send
up new juvenile shoots when you cut out the top). This will make it
even more bushy, so typically is not an adequate solution to what to do
when it starts to get too big for where you put it.

So, grow it in a big space, with several others to get a male-female
mix, and interspersed with a few N. dombeyi, well away from any
buildings. Then you can recreate a bit of the Chilean wilderness in
Britain. And in about 40 years you (or your grateful descendants) will
be able to gather and eat the nuts.


--
echinosum