I got a few very old rose-bushes in my garden. As in most years,the
roses had bloomed gorgeously, now for the second time.
What has been worrying me for a few weeks now is that the bushes have
been massively losing their lower leaves; they turn a dirty brown and
fall off. I couldn't detect any bugs or mildew. What other desease
could have befallen them?
Thanks for advice.

Yoyo

<Joachim_Arnold [at] t-online.de> wrote in message
news:1125665902.597127.84610 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>I got a few very old rose-bushes in my garden. As in most years,the
> roses had bloomed gorgeously, now for the second time.
> What has been worrying me for a few weeks now is that the bushes have
> been massively losing their lower leaves; they turn a dirty brown and
> fall off. I couldn't detect any bugs or mildew. What other desease
> could have befallen them?
> Thanks for advice.
>
> Yoyo

Where are you? I"m guessing Germany but
that doesn't tell me much about what your
temperatures and rain have been like.

Where I am (near San Antonio TX USA
Zone 8) we've had high heat, low rain all summer.
I've lost several roses whose leaves just turned
brown. They were probably weak from other
diseases (unknown) since other roses in the
same beds are fine.

Of course, too *much* rain can have the same
effect if for some reason the soil isn't draining
properly.

Are there trees nearby? Perhaps tree roots are
interfering with the rose roots. Trees will win
every time. If all your roses are having this
problem, it could be a problem with the soil.
Do you have a local nursery that can do a soil
test for you?

A good site for disease/pest identification is
Baldo's:
http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/

Gail

Hi, Gail,

you're right: I am in Germany. We had plenty of rain in early August,
but very dry weather ever since.
There is a huge old weeping willow nearby, but the rose-bushes are just
as old and there has been peaceful coexistence all the time.
I think you are right about having the soil tested. We'll see.
Thanks for your advice.

Joachim


Gail Futoran schrieb:

> <Joachim_Arnold [at] t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:1125665902.597127.84610 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >I got a few very old rose-bushes in my garden. As in most years,the
> > roses had bloomed gorgeously, now for the second time.
> > What has been worrying me for a few weeks now is that the bushes have
> > been massively losing their lower leaves; they turn a dirty brown and
> > fall off. I couldn't detect any bugs or mildew. What other desease
> > could have befallen them?
> > Thanks for advice.
> >
> > Yoyo
>
> Where are you? I"m guessing Germany but
> that doesn't tell me much about what your
> temperatures and rain have been like.
>
> Where I am (near San Antonio TX USA
> Zone 8) we've had high heat, low rain all summer.
> I've lost several roses whose leaves just turned
> brown. They were probably weak from other
> diseases (unknown) since other roses in the
> same beds are fine.
>
> Of course, too *much* rain can have the same
> effect if for some reason the soil isn't draining
> properly.
>
> Are there trees nearby? Perhaps tree roots are
> interfering with the rose roots. Trees will win
> every time. If all your roses are having this
> problem, it could be a problem with the soil.
> Do you have a local nursery that can do a soil
> test for you?
>
> A good site for disease/pest identification is
> Baldo's:
> http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/
>
> Gail

Hi,

I live in IL and this is my first time having rose bushes. I have one
rose bush that dropped all it's leaves so I thought it was dead. I was
watering all of the bushes yesterday and noticed that one stem has new
leave coming out. One of the other bushes seems to be doing well but
the leaves on one branch have dried up and curled up but the rest of the
bush is doing well. Any advice from anyone would be appricated. I
should mention that they did have the black spots on the leaves but I've
been spraying them and also, there are moles diging in the bed and small
ants. Could this all be the problem?

Kim

"Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SMgWe.632$jS.456 [at] newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
> Hi,
>
> I live in IL and this is my first time having rose bushes. I have one
> rose bush that dropped all it's leaves so I thought it was dead. I was
> watering all of the bushes yesterday and noticed that one stem has new
> leave coming out. One of the other bushes seems to be doing well but the
> leaves on one branch have dried up and curled up but the rest of the bush
> is doing well. Any advice from anyone would be appricated. I should
> mention that they did have the black spots on the leaves but I've been
> spraying them and also, there are moles diging in the bed and small ants.
> Could this all be the problem?
>
> Kim

Anything that disturbs the rose roots could be
a problem for the shrub. You probably should
treat for the pests. I don't have moles but I do
treat fire ant mounds on a regular basis.

Leaves drying out often means the shrub
isn't getting enough water. It's been really
hot in some parts of the USA. If you follow
the usual advice ("water deeply once per
week") you're asking to lose roses! (Been
there done that...) I have been known to water
every other day when it was really hot, dry and
windy, especially my raised beds which dry
out faster. This summer I've watered the rose
beds deeply twice per week almost every week
(obviously not when we've gotten a good
rainfall).

It's appropriate to prune the dead canes if you're
sure they're dead. New canes on some roses
are red and turn green later on. But if the
cane is brown and brittle, that's dead. Cut it
back as far as necessary and dab a bit of
white glue (Elmers or school glue) on the cut to
deter insects. (Usual rule is IIRC the thickness
of a pencil; anything smaller than that don't bother
with the glue.) You can prune dead canes at
any time.

Most roses have some blackspot and if the
rose is otherwise doing ok, I wouldn't bother
spraying too much. Sometimes the "cure" is
worse than the disease. I try to take a
minimalist approach and gradually add cures
to see what works and what doesn't.

A good site for all kinds of diseases and pests
of roses is Baldo's:
http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/

I'm also rather fond of the Ortho and Sunset
series on roses that can be found at bookstores
as well as places like Home Depot and Lowes.
Good text, good clear photos, and rather
cheap for what you're getting (around $15).

Gail
near San Antonio TX Zone 8

Gail Futoran wrote:
> "Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:SMgWe.632$jS.456 [at] newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I live in IL and this is my first time having rose bushes. I have one
>>rose bush that dropped all it's leaves so I thought it was dead. I was
>>watering all of the bushes yesterday and noticed that one stem has new
>>leave coming out. One of the other bushes seems to be doing well but the
>>leaves on one branch have dried up and curled up but the rest of the bush
>>is doing well. Any advice from anyone would be appricated. I should
>>mention that they did have the black spots on the leaves but I've been
>>spraying them and also, there are moles diging in the bed and small ants.
>>Could this all be the problem?
>>
>>Kim
>
>
> Anything that disturbs the rose roots could be
> a problem for the shrub. You probably should
> treat for the pests. I don't have moles but I do
> treat fire ant mounds on a regular basis.
>
> Leaves drying out often means the shrub
> isn't getting enough water. It's been really
> hot in some parts of the USA. If you follow
> the usual advice ("water deeply once per
> week") you're asking to lose roses! (Been
> there done that...) I have been known to water
> every other day when it was really hot, dry and
> windy, especially my raised beds which dry
> out faster. This summer I've watered the rose
> beds deeply twice per week almost every week
> (obviously not when we've gotten a good
> rainfall).
>
> It's appropriate to prune the dead canes if you're
> sure they're dead. New canes on some roses
> are red and turn green later on. But if the
> cane is brown and brittle, that's dead. Cut it
> back as far as necessary and dab a bit of
> white glue (Elmers or school glue) on the cut to
> deter insects. (Usual rule is IIRC the thickness
> of a pencil; anything smaller than that don't bother
> with the glue.) You can prune dead canes at
> any time.
>
> Most roses have some blackspot and if the
> rose is otherwise doing ok, I wouldn't bother
> spraying too much. Sometimes the "cure" is
> worse than the disease. I try to take a
> minimalist approach and gradually add cures
> to see what works and what doesn't.
>
> A good site for all kinds of diseases and pests
> of roses is Baldo's:
> http://members.tripod.com/buggyrose/
>
> I'm also rather fond of the Ortho and Sunset
> series on roses that can be found at bookstores
> as well as places like Home Depot and Lowes.
> Good text, good clear photos, and rather
> cheap for what you're getting (around $15).
>
> Gail
> near San Antonio TX Zone 8
>
>
Thanks Gail for all the great advice!

"Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:KPqWe.820$nF3.647 [at] newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
[snip]
> Thanks Gail for all the great advice!

You're welcome, and good luck. :)

Gail

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:52:18 GMT, Kim <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I live in IL and this is my first time having rose bushes. I have one
>rose bush that dropped all it's leaves so I thought it was dead. I was
>watering all of the bushes yesterday and noticed that one stem has new
>leave coming out. One of the other bushes seems to be doing well but
>the leaves on one branch have dried up and curled up but the rest of the
>bush is doing well. Any advice from anyone would be appricated. I
>should mention that they did have the black spots on the leaves but I've
>been spraying them and also, there are moles diging in the bed and small
>ants. Could this all be the problem?

Black spots on the leaves can be from several different sources, but
the main cause is the aptly-named "Black Spot", which causes the
leaves to fall off. Usually you see a small black spot that starts to
get bigger, or multiply and then the leaf starts turning an autumnal
shade of yellow (even if it's in May). The leaf then falls off.

Once Black Spot (the specific disease, not the symptom) hits a leaf,
it's toast. Doesn't matter if you spray and spray and spray. The only
thing you can do is prevent, not cure, at least at leaf level. The
thing is, this is spore-driven infection and the spores stay on the
leaves, even through the winter. You need to collect all of the leaves
off of the ground and dispose of them in a sealed plastic bag.

Another source of defoliation is Japanese beetles. It's not so much
that they eat the leaves, which they sometimes do when they've
obliterated all of the blooms. It's more of a stress to the plant in
general. Some of my roses that were beset by the little buggers
dropped almost all of their leaves in July and August. They are just
now starting to come back with new canes starting and new leaves
coming in.

If you have a single branch that has turned brown, you can prune it
back at anytime. Prune back until you find white in the center of the
stem. It's no big worry if you have to prune a dead branch completely
if the rest of the bush is fine.

Moles can certainly be a problem for the ultimate health of the plant
(after all, they disturb the root ball in some pretty drastic ways).
I'm not sure if ants are a big problem.

The man thing is to put a leaf into a baggie and take it to your local
garden center. They can tell you if it's black spot or some other
fungal, viral or bacterial infection.

dave weil wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:52:18 GMT, Kim <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I live in IL and this is my first time having rose bushes. I have one
>>rose bush that dropped all it's leaves so I thought it was dead. I was
>>watering all of the bushes yesterday and noticed that one stem has new
>>leave coming out. One of the other bushes seems to be doing well but
>>the leaves on one branch have dried up and curled up but the rest of the
>>bush is doing well. Any advice from anyone would be appricated. I
>>should mention that they did have the black spots on the leaves but I've
>>been spraying them and also, there are moles diging in the bed and small
>>ants. Could this all be the problem?
>
>
> Black spots on the leaves can be from several different sources, but
> the main cause is the aptly-named "Black Spot", which causes the
> leaves to fall off. Usually you see a small black spot that starts to
> get bigger, or multiply and then the leaf starts turning an autumnal
> shade of yellow (even if it's in May). The leaf then falls off.
>
> Once Black Spot (the specific disease, not the symptom) hits a leaf,
> it's toast. Doesn't matter if you spray and spray and spray. The only
> thing you can do is prevent, not cure, at least at leaf level. The
> thing is, this is spore-driven infection and the spores stay on the
> leaves, even through the winter. You need to collect all of the leaves
> off of the ground and dispose of them in a sealed plastic bag.
>
> Another source of defoliation is Japanese beetles. It's not so much
> that they eat the leaves, which they sometimes do when they've
> obliterated all of the blooms. It's more of a stress to the plant in
> general. Some of my roses that were beset by the little buggers
> dropped almost all of their leaves in July and August. They are just
> now starting to come back with new canes starting and new leaves
> coming in.
>
> If you have a single branch that has turned brown, you can prune it
> back at anytime. Prune back until you find white in the center of the
> stem. It's no big worry if you have to prune a dead branch completely
> if the rest of the bush is fine.
>
> Moles can certainly be a problem for the ultimate health of the plant
> (after all, they disturb the root ball in some pretty drastic ways).
> I'm not sure if ants are a big problem.
>
> The man thing is to put a leaf into a baggie and take it to your local
> garden center. They can tell you if it's black spot or some other
> fungal, viral or bacterial infection.
>

Thank you Dave for all that info. I'm pretty sure it's the black spot
thing. The bad thing is, one plant has lost all leaves and only has two
green branches left. One has new leaves coming in and the other looks
like it may have some starting. The rest of the plant is the larger
stalks and that's what I didn't really know if I should cut back.

Another thought I had was to totally transplant them somewhere else
because they are under the eves of the house and I would like for them
to get rain. I can't really avoid the moles because they are all over
our yard. Do you think that I can transplant even if I just planted
them last spring or would that be too stressful on them to move them so
soon. I think I'm going to buy a book about roses, they have a good one
at Home Depot that I was looking at.

Kim

"Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:VUGWe.1042$4T5.946 [at] newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

[snip]
I can't really avoid the moles because they are all over
> our yard.

I have a vague memory of using chicken wire to
keep out moles. You'd have to do some research
but I think the concept is to line the planting hole
with chicken wire. The moles can't get in, roots will
eventually grow outside the chicken wire but
probably enough will survive to keep the plant
alive. Anyway, it's something worth checking on.

Do you think that I can transplant even if I just planted
> them last spring or would that be too stressful on them to move them so
> soon. I think I'm going to buy a book about roses, they have a good one
> at Home Depot that I was looking at.
>
> Kim

I'll defer to Dave on the transplanting, but I
think you have to choose between losing them
to moles or "fixing" the holes now. If you
do that you might as well transplant. But I'd
be concerned about the heat. If you do
transplant I'd do it in one move. Prepare the
new hole(s), dig up the plant(s) with as much
of the root ball as possible, move immediately
to the new hole. If you can get it, use some
horticultural seaweed. It's a great natural root
stimulator. I've found it in D.C. (when
helping a friend with her first rose) so you
might be able to find it in VA.

Gail

Gail Futoran wrote:
> "Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:VUGWe.1042$4T5.946 [at] newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> [snip]
> I can't really avoid the moles because they are all over
>
>>our yard.
>
>
> I have a vague memory of using chicken wire to
> keep out moles. You'd have to do some research
> but I think the concept is to line the planting hole
> with chicken wire. The moles can't get in, roots will
> eventually grow outside the chicken wire but
> probably enough will survive to keep the plant
> alive. Anyway, it's something worth checking on.
>
> Do you think that I can transplant even if I just planted
>
>>them last spring or would that be too stressful on them to move them so
>>soon. I think I'm going to buy a book about roses, they have a good one
>>at Home Depot that I was looking at.
>>
>>Kim
>
>
> I'll defer to Dave on the transplanting, but I
> think you have to choose between losing them
> to moles or "fixing" the holes now. If you
> do that you might as well transplant. But I'd
> be concerned about the heat. If you do
> transplant I'd do it in one move. Prepare the
> new hole(s), dig up the plant(s) with as much
> of the root ball as possible, move immediately
> to the new hole. If you can get it, use some
> horticultural seaweed. It's a great natural root
> stimulator. I've found it in D.C. (when
> helping a friend with her first rose) so you
> might be able to find it in VA.
>
> Gail
>
>
Thanks Gail, that's a good idea with the chicken wire. I live in IL so
I'm not sure where I would find the seaweed. I'm sure one of our
florist would know. Thanks for all you suggestions.

Kim

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 02:20:47 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
<futoran [at] nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>"Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:VUGWe.1042$4T5.946 [at] newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
>[snip]
> I can't really avoid the moles because they are all over
>> our yard.
>
>I have a vague memory of using chicken wire to
>keep out moles. You'd have to do some research
>but I think the concept is to line the planting hole
>with chicken wire. The moles can't get in, roots will
>eventually grow outside the chicken wire but
>probably enough will survive to keep the plant
>alive. Anyway, it's something worth checking on.
>
>Do you think that I can transplant even if I just planted
>> them last spring or would that be too stressful on them to move them so
>> soon. I think I'm going to buy a book about roses, they have a good one
>> at Home Depot that I was looking at.
>>
>> Kim
>
>I'll defer to Dave on the transplanting, but I
>think you have to choose between losing them
>to moles or "fixing" the holes now. If you
>do that you might as well transplant. But I'd
>be concerned about the heat. If you do
>transplant I'd do it in one move. Prepare the
>new hole(s), dig up the plant(s) with as much
>of the root ball as possible, move immediately
>to the new hole. If you can get it, use some
>horticultural seaweed. It's a great natural root
>stimulator. I've found it in D.C. (when
>helping a friend with her first rose) so you
>might be able to find it in VA.
>
>Gail

Personally, I'd probably wait until they go dormant but before the
ground freezes solid. Up there, that would probably be somewhere
around the middle of November.

Problem is, if the moles are all over the yard, I'm not sure if
transplanting wil do the trick. I'd find out how to get rid of the
moles. There are traps and the like that can do the trick.

"Kim" <Redroses1963 [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:n_LWe.1047$nF3.639 [at] newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
[snip]
> Thanks Gail, that's a good idea with the chicken wire. I live in IL so
> I'm not sure where I would find the seaweed. I'm sure one of our florist
> would know. Thanks for all you suggestions.
>
> Kim

Oops, sorry. :) I was mixing you up with another
poster who lives in VA.

Seaweed is not so uncommon a product so
it's worth checking around for it. I would start
with nurseries, especially if there are any
locally that carry organic products.

Gail