Hey All!

Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.

I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
interested!

Thanks!

jamiefw [at] gmail.com wrote:
> Hey All!
>
> Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
> project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
> interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
> Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
> correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.
>
> I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
> Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
> interested!
>
> Thanks!
>

What sort of school project? High School? College? Law School? This
topic could become a life's work and/or book. I'm not a smuggler, nor
do I play one on TV, but depending on how 'in' to this you want to get
there's a bunch of stuff online. If your project is a 5 page high
school paper that's one thing. If its a law dgree that's another...

If you are researching a short paper search for US Department of Justice
information on the case for Michael Kovach, Selby Gardens and
Phragmipedium kovachii. There may be some info still available online
from the Miami area newspapers and/or the Sarasota, Fl newspapers (you
have to search to get the newspaper's name, sorry). Sarasota is the town
Selby gardens is located in.

If you want something more in depth with innuendo try searching the
archives of the "Orchid Guide Digest" (google it). You'll have to
figure out their search engine and spend a bunch of time tracing
threads, but it can be done. There will be comments from people who
attended the trial of Pepe Portillo, as well as George Norris (who
should be getting out of jail soon.) You could google Pepe Portillo,
and George Norris in conjunction with the word 'smuggle' or 'orchid'
too. See what turns up.

thanks very much for your reply, your answer looks like it will be very
helpful. to answer your question it's a 10 page paper for a class
called "The Underground Economy". The class focuses on underground
economic activities. It's a mid level class in a 4 year economic
problem. I will start looking through the Orchid Guide Digest.

if anyone else has any more helpful hints I would great appreciate it,

K Barrett aka Orchid Moll...she's run with the best of 'em, but *she* ain't
got caught.


"K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mJednbuYCLvhz-fenZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> jamiefw [at] gmail.com wrote:
>> Hey All!
>>
>> Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
>> project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
>> interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
>> Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
>> correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.
>>
>> I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
>> Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
>> interested!
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
> What sort of school project? High School? College? Law School? This
> topic could become a life's work and/or book. I'm not a smuggler, nor do
> I play one on TV, but depending on how 'in' to this you want to get
> there's a bunch of stuff online. If your project is a 5 page high school
> paper that's one thing. If its a law dgree that's another...
>
> If you are researching a short paper search for US Department of Justice
> information on the case for Michael Kovach, Selby Gardens and
> Phragmipedium kovachii. There may be some info still available online
> from the Miami area newspapers and/or the Sarasota, Fl newspapers (you
> have to search to get the newspaper's name, sorry). Sarasota is the town
> Selby gardens is located in.
>
> If you want something more in depth with innuendo try searching the
> archives of the "Orchid Guide Digest" (google it). You'll have to figure
> out their search engine and spend a bunch of time tracing threads, but it
> can be done. There will be comments from people who attended the trial of
> Pepe Portillo, as well as George Norris (who should be getting out of jail
> soon.) You could google Pepe Portillo, and George Norris in conjunction
> with the word 'smuggle' or 'orchid' too. See what turns up.

ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
were? Does anyone have any further information?

ok, now another source is telling me they didnt' do anything wrong!
geeze louis

The accusation was that they intentionally mislabeled plants to get them
through customs. I seriously doubt that they did, and I don't think the FWS
folks had the expertise to determine if they did or not.

Both pled out to not go bankrupt from legal costs.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"jamiemtl" <jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132098735.061682.40260 [at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ok, now another source is telling me they didnt' do anything wrong!
> geeze louis
>

When you're a Jet, you stay a Jet!
K

Al wrote:
> K Barrett aka Orchid Moll...she's run with the best of 'em, but *she* ain't
> got caught.

jamiemtl wrote:
> ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
> they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
> with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
> website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
> were? Does anyone have any further information?
>

That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.

To answer your question about how this is done.

If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant stuffs.

One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll
put a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph
cernua' and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask
what '1167' is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but
to a customs agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like
a "code".

Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.

So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of
paperwork saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like
Phragmipedium schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS
(endangered species) permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork
says item #123 is Phrag schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy
Phrag kovachii (an example only), a plant people would kill for. The
customs agents look over his shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are
coming in, but they really have no idea WHAT they are because one out of
bloom phrag looks pretty much like another. You pick up the plants at
the customs house. Your cohort has emailed you the real list, stating
#123 is kovachii. Bada bing! You're in the money. You contact your
friends who you know will want the plants no matter what the cost, and
you laugh all the way to the bank. Unless you are George Norris, who -
according the the feds - never deleted his email or cleaned his hard
drive and they found the trail. Then you wind up in prison. Note:
George wasn't busted for Phrag. kovachii, Selby Gardens and Michael
Kovach were, I just used those species as an example.

I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!

If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to
find Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served
their search warrant. I thought it was chilling.

You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled
the back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to
sell in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours
at plant identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than
that, but there's only so much I can write at one time.

K Barrett

Since you are in Canada, this might be of interest:
http://www.bedfordorchids.com/cfia.htm

It is an article posted by the Canadian orchid vendor Bedford Orchids
describing the beaurocratic incompetence of Toronto officials dealing with
orchids legally imported into Canada after the World Orchid Conference that
took place in Dijon, France in March 2005. While not precisely on illegal
orchid smuggling, this article is related in that it shows some of the
beaurocracy that can be in place to try to legally control orchid imports.

The article ends on the intriguing statement "I have now found out that
every single orchid plant declared in Toronto was detained. Every plant
smuggled in was not found. Is Judy Smith and her petty officious nature CFIA
's new incentive to smuggle?" I assume that the author is just assuming that
someone did smuggle in some orchids (?). Of course, the article is written
from one point of view, and you might want to double-check the facts if you
can find other articles on this matter -- vendors who are interested in
imported orchids are not very objective observers of CITES enforcement
officials. :-)

In general you will probably find a lot of bias on this subject, and it may
be difficult to sort out who is guilty/innocent, right/wrong,
just-enforcing-laws/obstructing-imports. I do not know whether Mr. Norris
for example was really guilty or innocent, what I do know is that a lot of
the posts to orchid groups on this subject were written by people who
sympathized with him -- was it because he was innocent? was it because they
were his friends? was it because they in general think that CITES laws are
unreasonable (a lot of people who are into orchids believe that these laws
are quite stupid to begin with and then enforced incorrectly by officials
who do not know enough about orchids)? I do not know, but if I were
researching this subject, I would be very careful to double-check the
sources, and keep in mind that the authors of any info I read may be
biased -- this of course would apply to both sides, since those who ardently
claimed that Mr. Norris was guilty may well have been his competitors or
people with a grudge or people who are strong supporters of CITES
regulations and wanted a conviction as a deterrent to orchid smuggling (?).
As I said, I do not know the truth in the matter, but I know that many
people in the orchid communities feel very strongly about it.

Joanna

<jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132085840.842531.156250 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hey All!
>
> Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
> project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
> interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
> Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
> correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.
>
> I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
> Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
> interested!
>
> Thanks!
>

In article <uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com>,
mormodes [at] hotmail.com says...
> If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to
> find Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served
> their search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>
>
Some is on RGO too. Look for "Norris" at rec.gardens.orchids at Google
groups.

--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

I spoke at a SOOS meeting this last Spring, and heard all kinds of stories
about the return from France. Apparently it was a specific individual or
group in a single point-of-entry that was the issue. Folks entering through
other airports breezed through.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"J Fortuna" <joanna [at] REMOVEfortunabujard.com> wrote in message
news:_%Aef.16668$rO4.1099 [at] trnddc05...
> Since you are in Canada, this might be of interest:
> http://www.bedfordorchids.com/cfia.htm
>
> It is an article posted by the Canadian orchid vendor Bedford Orchids
> describing the beaurocratic incompetence of Toronto officials dealing with
> orchids legally imported into Canada after the World Orchid Conference
> that
> took place in Dijon, France in March 2005. While not precisely on illegal
> orchid smuggling, this article is related in that it shows some of the
> beaurocracy that can be in place to try to legally control orchid imports.
>
> The article ends on the intriguing statement "I have now found out that
> every single orchid plant declared in Toronto was detained. Every plant
> smuggled in was not found. Is Judy Smith and her petty officious nature
> CFIA
> 's new incentive to smuggle?" I assume that the author is just assuming
> that
> someone did smuggle in some orchids (?). Of course, the article is written
> from one point of view, and you might want to double-check the facts if
> you
> can find other articles on this matter -- vendors who are interested in
> imported orchids are not very objective observers of CITES enforcement
> officials. :-)
>
> In general you will probably find a lot of bias on this subject, and it
> may
> be difficult to sort out who is guilty/innocent, right/wrong,
> just-enforcing-laws/obstructing-imports. I do not know whether Mr. Norris
> for example was really guilty or innocent, what I do know is that a lot of
> the posts to orchid groups on this subject were written by people who
> sympathized with him -- was it because he was innocent? was it because
> they
> were his friends? was it because they in general think that CITES laws are
> unreasonable (a lot of people who are into orchids believe that these laws
> are quite stupid to begin with and then enforced incorrectly by officials
> who do not know enough about orchids)? I do not know, but if I were
> researching this subject, I would be very careful to double-check the
> sources, and keep in mind that the authors of any info I read may be
> biased -- this of course would apply to both sides, since those who
> ardently
> claimed that Mr. Norris was guilty may well have been his competitors or
> people with a grudge or people who are strong supporters of CITES
> regulations and wanted a conviction as a deterrent to orchid smuggling
> (?).
> As I said, I do not know the truth in the matter, but I know that many
> people in the orchid communities feel very strongly about it.
>
> Joanna
>
> <jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1132085840.842531.156250 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Hey All!
>>
>> Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
>> project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
>> interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
>> Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
>> correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.
>>
>> I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
>> Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
>> interested!
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
>

You might also find the following book a worthwhile read:

Orchid Fever : A Horticultural Tale of Love, Lust, and Lunacy
by Eric Hansen

Not all of the book is about orchid smuggling, but some of it is. In
general, this is a book about how crazy people can get over orchids. One of
the stories on orchid smuggling mentioned in this book talks of a case where
some orchid grower in Europe (Britain I think) reported another orchid
grower (his competitor?) to law enforcement for owning illegally smuggled
orchids. The law enforcement officials raided the guy's greenhouse,
confiscated the orchids, and then gave them to the informant to take care of
(since he knew how to take care of orchids, and the officials did not have
another greenhouse etc. available)!

--------

Another part of the issue you may be interested in is that one way for
orchid species that are illegal in the U.S. to become legally available is
that plants that are confiscated from someone who smuggled them in (and thus
illegal ones) are then propagated and the divisions or seedlings of those
orchids are then legal in the U.S.. An example of that is legally available
paph vietnamense in the U.S., which are then provided with paperwork that
can trace them legally to plants that were confiscated.

Joanna


"J Fortuna" <joanna [at] REMOVEfortunabujard.com> wrote in message
news:_%Aef.16668$rO4.1099 [at] trnddc05...
> Since you are in Canada, this might be of interest:
> http://www.bedfordorchids.com/cfia.htm
>
> It is an article posted by the Canadian orchid vendor Bedford Orchids
> describing the beaurocratic incompetence of Toronto officials dealing with
> orchids legally imported into Canada after the World Orchid Conference
that
> took place in Dijon, France in March 2005. While not precisely on illegal
> orchid smuggling, this article is related in that it shows some of the
> beaurocracy that can be in place to try to legally control orchid imports.
>
> The article ends on the intriguing statement "I have now found out that
> every single orchid plant declared in Toronto was detained. Every plant
> smuggled in was not found. Is Judy Smith and her petty officious nature
CFIA
> 's new incentive to smuggle?" I assume that the author is just assuming
that
> someone did smuggle in some orchids (?). Of course, the article is written
> from one point of view, and you might want to double-check the facts if
you
> can find other articles on this matter -- vendors who are interested in
> imported orchids are not very objective observers of CITES enforcement
> officials. :-)
>
> In general you will probably find a lot of bias on this subject, and it
may
> be difficult to sort out who is guilty/innocent, right/wrong,
> just-enforcing-laws/obstructing-imports. I do not know whether Mr. Norris
> for example was really guilty or innocent, what I do know is that a lot of
> the posts to orchid groups on this subject were written by people who
> sympathized with him -- was it because he was innocent? was it because
they
> were his friends? was it because they in general think that CITES laws are
> unreasonable (a lot of people who are into orchids believe that these laws
> are quite stupid to begin with and then enforced incorrectly by officials
> who do not know enough about orchids)? I do not know, but if I were
> researching this subject, I would be very careful to double-check the
> sources, and keep in mind that the authors of any info I read may be
> biased -- this of course would apply to both sides, since those who
ardently
> claimed that Mr. Norris was guilty may well have been his competitors or
> people with a grudge or people who are strong supporters of CITES
> regulations and wanted a conviction as a deterrent to orchid smuggling
(?).
> As I said, I do not know the truth in the matter, but I know that many
> people in the orchid communities feel very strongly about it.
>
> Joanna
>
> <jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1132085840.842531.156250 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Hey All!
> >
> > Workinng on a Case Study of Illegal Orchid Smugglings for a school
> > project. Anyone have any first hand experiences with this? I would be
> > interested to hear anyones experiences in dealing with underground
> > Orchids. Confidentiality is assured. Would be up for either email
> > correspondence and/or a quick telephone chat.
> >
> > I'm in Canada - but you could be wherever!
> > Drop me a line at fergusonwoods AT hotmail DOT com if you're
> > interested!
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
>
>

With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened. I
don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your hypothetical
example suggests it is done.

I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of by
accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and shouldn't
have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have always kind of
believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one of their native
plants had made it into the US to be described by a US authority and that
until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind of gray area in it that
would allow undescribed material to be exported so easily. It has always
seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area and not at all doing what
you describe below as smuggling. But my assumptions are probably too
simplified.

He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done when
this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in their
lap?

K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> jamiemtl wrote:
>> ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
>> they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
>> with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
>> website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
>> were? Does anyone have any further information?
>>
>
> That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.
>
> To answer your question about how this is done.
>
> If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
> mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant stuffs.
>
> One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
> orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
> tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
> label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
> numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll put
> a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph cernua'
> and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask what '1167'
> is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but to a customs
> agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like a "code".
>
> Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
> like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.
>
> So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of paperwork
> saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like Phragmipedium
> schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS (endangered species)
> permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork says item #123 is Phrag
> schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy Phrag kovachii (an example
> only), a plant people would kill for. The customs agents look over his
> shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are coming in, but they really have
> no idea WHAT they are because one out of bloom phrag looks pretty much
> like another. You pick up the plants at the customs house. Your cohort has
> emailed you the real list, stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing! You're
> in the money. You contact your friends who you know will want the plants
> no matter what the cost, and you laugh all the way to the bank. Unless
> you are George Norris, who - according the the feds - never deleted his
> email or cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail. Then you wind
> up in prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag. kovachii, Selby
> Gardens and Michael Kovach were, I just used those species as an example.
>
> I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!
>
> If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to find
> Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served their
> search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>
> You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled the
> back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to sell
> in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours at plant
> identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than that, but
> there's only so much I can write at one time.
>
> K Barrett

I knew I'd confuse the issue by mentioning kovachii or any names at all.
I'm sorry I ever answered the original question. My answer was in
regard to HOW orchids could be smuggled using a CODE. Not about
kovachii or anything/anyone else. Substitute X and Y for plant names if
you prefer.

K

Al wrote:
> With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened. I
> don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your hypothetical
> example suggests it is done.
>
> I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
> import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of by
> accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and shouldn't
> have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have always kind of
> believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one of their native
> plants had made it into the US to be described by a US authority and that
> until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind of gray area in it that
> would allow undescribed material to be exported so easily. It has always
> seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area and not at all doing what
> you describe below as smuggling. But my assumptions are probably too
> simplified.
>
> He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
> but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
> correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
> after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done when
> this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in their
> lap?
>
> K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
>>jamiemtl wrote:
>>
>>>ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
>>>they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
>>>with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
>>>website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
>>>were? Does anyone have any further information?
>>>
>>
>>That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.
>>
>>To answer your question about how this is done.
>>
>>If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
>>mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant stuffs.
>>
>>One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
>>orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
>>tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
>>label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
>>numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll put
>>a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph cernua'
>>and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask what '1167'
>>is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but to a customs
>>agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like a "code".
>>
>>Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
>>like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.
>>
>>So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of paperwork
>>saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like Phragmipedium
>>schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS (endangered species)
>>permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork says item #123 is Phrag
>>schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy Phrag kovachii (an example
>>only), a plant people would kill for. The customs agents look over his
>>shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are coming in, but they really have
>>no idea WHAT they are because one out of bloom phrag looks pretty much
>>like another. You pick up the plants at the customs house. Your cohort has
>>emailed you the real list, stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing! You're
>>in the money. You contact your friends who you know will want the plants
>>no matter what the cost, and you laugh all the way to the bank. Unless
>>you are George Norris, who - according the the feds - never deleted his
>>email or cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail. Then you wind
>>up in prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag. kovachii, Selby
>>Gardens and Michael Kovach were, I just used those species as an example.
>>
>>I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!
>>
>>If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to find
>>Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served their
>>search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>>
>>You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled the
>>back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to sell
>>in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours at plant
>>identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than that, but
>>there's only so much I can write at one time.
>>
>>K Barrett
>
>
>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:59:16 -0500 in <SsOdnennRIvY1ObeRVn-iA [at] adelphia.com> Al <nospam [at] all.ever> wrote:
> With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened. I
> don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your hypothetical
> example suggests it is done.
>
> I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
> import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of by
> accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and shouldn't
> have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have always kind of
> believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one of their native
> plants had made it into the US to be described by a US authority and that
> until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind of gray area in it that
> would allow undescribed material to be exported so easily. It has always
> seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area and not at all doing what
> you describe below as smuggling. But my assumptions are probably too
> simplified.
>
> He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
> but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
> correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
> after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done when
> this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in their
> lap?

Get someone else to bring in the plant material and be the person
the government deems to take care of the confiscated plant material?

For our paper writer, are your studies also covering the law
of unintended consequences?
--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

I just picked up the Book Orchid Fever from my library and will be
taking a look at it today. The paper is unlike something I have ever
done in University before. We are supposed to take information from the
least informal spaces and sources as possible. I've been searching
threw the Orchid Guide Digest and found some interesting things about
Pepe and Norris. I think i'm going to write the paper outlining
evidence from both sides...i will report what the dop says, but also
what the orchid community says...i'll post the paper up when im done so
you can take a look..it you're interested! thanks again
jamie

On 16 Nov 2005 09:16:16 -0800 in <1132161375.964749.79920 [at] o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> jamiemtl <jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> I just picked up the Book Orchid Fever from my library and will be
> taking a look at it today. The paper is unlike something I have ever
> done in University before. We are supposed to take information from the
> least informal spaces and sources as possible. I've been searching
> threw the Orchid Guide Digest and found some interesting things about
> Pepe and Norris. I think i'm going to write the paper outlining
> evidence from both sides...i will report what the dop says, but also
> what the orchid community says...i'll post the paper up when im done so
> you can take a look..it you're interested! thanks again

You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray area
where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species. What did
he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the way to
Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits the big
blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species. I don't
know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present his new find
to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to Shelby because Shelby
was the botany department he knew of that could do the work.

Your example is one way plants are smuggled, for sure. No names are needed.
I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It is
clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just new to
me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I bought
Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa and when
it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No, I think I'll
keep for all those times I bought something rare (not necessarily from this
man) and got Phal equestris instead.


"K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JfmdnQD4Feg4_ebenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>I knew I'd confuse the issue by mentioning kovachii or any names at all.
>I'm sorry I ever answered the original question. My answer was in regard
>to HOW orchids could be smuggled using a CODE. Not about kovachii or
>anything/anyone else. Substitute X and Y for plant names if you prefer.
>
> K
>
> Al wrote:
>> With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened.
>> I don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your
>> hypothetical example suggests it is done.
>>
>> I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
>> import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of
>> by accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and
>> shouldn't have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have
>> always kind of believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one
>> of their native plants had made it into the US to be described by a US
>> authority and that until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind
>> of gray area in it that would allow undescribed material to be exported
>> so easily. It has always seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area
>> and not at all doing what you describe below as smuggling. But my
>> assumptions are probably too simplified.
>>
>> He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
>> but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
>> correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
>> after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done
>> when this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in
>> their lap?
>>
>> K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>>jamiemtl wrote:
>>>
>>>>ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
>>>>they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
>>>>with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
>>>>website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
>>>>were? Does anyone have any further information?
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.
>>>
>>>To answer your question about how this is done.
>>>
>>>If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
>>>mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant
>>>stuffs.
>>>
>>>One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
>>>orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
>>>tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
>>>label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
>>>numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll
>>>put a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph
>>>cernua' and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask
>>>what '1167' is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but to
>>>a customs agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like a
>>>"code".
>>>
>>>Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
>>>like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.
>>>
>>>So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of paperwork
>>>saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like Phragmipedium
>>>schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS (endangered species)
>>>permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork says item #123 is Phrag
>>>schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy Phrag kovachii (an example
>>>only), a plant people would kill for. The customs agents look over his
>>>shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are coming in, but they really have
>>>no idea WHAT they are because one out of bloom phrag looks pretty much
>>>like another. You pick up the plants at the customs house. Your cohort
>>>has emailed you the real list, stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing!
>>>You're in the money. You contact your friends who you know will want
>>>the plants no matter what the cost, and you laugh all the way to the
>>>bank. Unless you are George Norris, who - according the the feds - never
>>>deleted his email or cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail.
>>>Then you wind up in prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag.
>>>kovachii, Selby Gardens and Michael Kovach were, I just used those
>>>species as an example.
>>>
>>>I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!
>>>
>>>If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to find
>>>Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served their
>>>search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>>>
>>>You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled
>>>the back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to
>>>sell in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours at
>>>plant identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than
>>>that, but there's only so much I can write at one time.
>>>
>>>K Barrett
>>
>>

ok - so after searching through orchid digest and other forums it
appears that people in the Orchid Community think that anti-smuggling
laws are garbage. There has been a hidden undertone as to the
"political reasons" for the ban and trade or orchids. Any hint as to
what these are??

In article <hqudnfRCWpBK9-beRVn-vw [at] adelphia.com>, nospam [at] all.ever
says...
> I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
> Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray area
> where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species. What did
> he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the way to
> Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits the big
> blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species. I don't
> know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present his new find
> to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to Shelby because Shelby
> was the botany department he knew of that could do the work.
Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...

> You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
> for seed banks.
I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

Reka wrote:
> In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
> pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...
>
>
>>You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
>>for seed banks.
>
> I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
> general smuggling of plant material into the States?

No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
for phrag seeds.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

I hate when that happens. I once got a batch of "A. miniatum" that turned
out to include a couple of what I later figured out to be Sarcoglyphus (sp?)
mirabilis. Worst part is I'd order more of the latter, except the seller
obviously doesn't know the difference, and so would probably send another
load of miniatum .... I also see a very high percentage of mislabelled
Schomburgkia. --
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids
kenni [at] jborchids.com


> I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
> time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
> were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
> curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
> flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
> picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It
> is clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just
> new to me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I
> bought Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa
> and when it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No, I
> think I'll keep for all those times I bought something rare (not
> necessarily from this man) and got Phal equestris instead.

Reka wrote:
> In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
> pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...
>
>
>>You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
>>for seed banks.
>
> I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
> general smuggling of plant material into the States?

NO, CITES specifically includes "any part thereof", and in fact this is
the single most damning part of the whole thing. The failure to exclude
plants from this clause written for animals (which usually have to be
killed to obtain 'any part thereof') creates a pact which achieves the
reverse of it's supposed purpose, conservation (yes, it's a trade
treaty, but the purpose was in fact conservation). With plants, if you
exempt the parts, that is, seeds, seed capsules, and pollen, you are
able to artificially propagate them and thereby reduce the pressure on
collection of species in habitat. By failing to exclude them from this
clause, a situation has been created wherein the habitats are stripped
by collecting (yes, be it illegal or not) and many plants are so
'protected' they are 'imprisoned' in habitat as roads, farms, and
airstrips are built over them.

As to the the Kovachii episode, throw out everything you were thinking
about law, smuggling, and CITES. It was a case of personalities and
pride. No institution such as Selby had ever been expected to be
responsible for the actions of collectors. Their job is to classify,
which is a scientific endeavor of benefit to all humanity. It creates a
dampening effect on science in any area when they are also expoected to
be policemen. The peruvian authorities and those in the US were alerted
and prodded into action by someone else working on describing the plant
who was outdone by the earlier publishing of the name kovachii. Their
plan had been to be name it 'peruvianum', which is where the peruvian
authorities got their dander up, Until then they were perfectly happy to
let the plants just be farmed over (which is what ended up happening
anyway).

Michael Kovach did in fact have a legal arrangement to import plants as
that was his business. His contention that as the plant had not been
identified it could not technically be subject to CITES as an appendix 1
plant is not entirely without merit (if you'll speak to lawyers or
people who write such treaties they will tell you it's all about
technicalities). And in fact he was charged with the importation of only
one plant, for identification purposes at Selby. No one had ever been
subject to any kind of penalty before for moving one specimen for
identification.

Orchid Fever has it right. It's all about the people involved.

This is where I am confused and this is what I mean.

I assume he had the correct import permits for Phrag species from the US
CITIES officials when he left the country to go to Peru. He is a plant
collector.

I assume, when he goes to leave Peru, he obtained permission to export the
plants he collected from a CITIES official there.

I believe he knew he had a new species of Phrag.

So how does the paper work read? Did he write "Phrag sp. unidentified" which
might allow the export and import officials checking paperwork against
plants in a box to read it as being one of the species on the list he had
authority to import/export?

Did he mean to obfuscate the newness of the species *if* he wrote this
and/or did the officials make assumptions that did not include the
possibility it was new? Did he lie on the form and claim it was something
he knew it wasn't: "Phrag schlimii"

Did he know his authority to import/export Phrags did *not* include
undescribed new species in this genus?

Did the lower level permit checking and issuing officials on both sides of
the border know what to do if they had a NEW species from a CITES appendix
two protected genus passing by them? How often does that happen?

I have always just been curious. Is this a gray area or should somebody
have known to stop the plants from leaving Peru or coming into the country.
Or did he HIDE the newness of the Phrag in order to get it into the country?

Al

And, esoterically messing with your mind: If it's an unidentified new
species, how can it be considered a Phrag at all?

Reka" <rhukari [at] rolmail.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1de592de2c3a38499896db [at] news.rolmail.net...
> In article <hqudnfRCWpBK9-beRVn-vw [at] adelphia.com>, nospam [at] all.ever

> Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
> to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
> species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
> --
> Reka
>
> This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
> http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

I shall have to check into this genus and see if this is what I got.

"Kenni Judd" <kenni [at] REMOVEjborchids.com> wrote in message
news:U4CdnYshcIdu4ubeRVn-rw [at] adelphia.com...
>I hate when that happens. I once got a batch of "A. miniatum" that turned
>out to include a couple of what I later figured out to be Sarcoglyphus
>(sp?) mirabilis. Worst part is I'd order more of the latter, except the
>seller obviously doesn't know the difference, and so would probably send
>another load of miniatum .... I also see a very high percentage of
>mislabelled Schomburgkia. --
> Kenni Judd
> Juno Beach Orchids
> kenni [at] jborchids.com
>
>
>> I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
>> time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
>> were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
>> curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
>> flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
>> picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It
>> is clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just
>> new to me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I
>> bought Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa
>> and when it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No,
>> I think I'll keep for all those times I bought something rare (not
>> necessarily from this man) and got Phal equestris instead.
>
>

In article <dlfuv2$jn$1 [at] news.msu.edu>, rob [at] littlefrogfarm.com says...
> Reka wrote:
> > In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
> > pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...
> >
> >
> >>You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
> >>for seed banks.
> >
> > I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
> > general smuggling of plant material into the States?
>
> No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
> regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
> sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
> for phrag seeds.
>
>
Oh, so it's been modified SINCE Kovach?
--
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

In article <MPG.1de5a819c32976519896dd [at] news.rolmail.net>,
rhukari [at] rolmail.net says...
> In article <dlfuv2$jn$1 [at] news.msu.edu>, rob [at] littlefrogfarm.com says...
> > Reka wrote:
> > > In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
> > > pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...
> > >
> > >
> > >>You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
> > >>for seed banks.
> > >
> > > I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
> > > general smuggling of plant material into the States?
> >
> > No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
> > regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
> > sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
> > for phrag seeds.
> >
> >
> Oh, so it's been modified SINCE Kovach?
> --
>
Wait, I guess that is just NOT-Appendix I orchids.
--
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

PS. See, I am under the impression you can import, with the correct
permits, plant material on CITES Appendix 1 list if they are certified to be
nursery grown. The lore I understand about this case is that he bought the
plants from a local plant stand in the mountains of Peru. Nursery. Plant
Stand, hummm..... To me this means some Peruvian CITES permit issuing
official had to certify that the vendor in the mountains actually produced
these plants in their nursery...and everybody concerned had to believe this
was true....

I still would like to learn the coarse of events and how they traveled from
there to Shelby without being stopped. But probably not enough to go back
and wade through the volume of information posted on orchid boards and lists
that this topic has produced. So I don't really expect an answer. I am
just avoiding work today....

"Al" <nospam [at] all.ever> wrote in message
news:-ridnbAOgOHwHebeRVn-oA [at] adelphia.com...
> This is where I am confused and this is what I mean.
>
> I assume he had the correct import permits for Phrag species from the US
> CITIES officials when he left the country to go to Peru. He is a plant
> collector.
>
> I assume, when he goes to leave Peru, he obtained permission to export the
> plants he collected from a CITIES official there.
>
> I believe he knew he had a new species of Phrag.
>
> So how does the paper work read? Did he write "Phrag sp. unidentified"
> which might allow the export and import officials checking paperwork
> against plants in a box to read it as being one of the species on the list
> he had authority to import/export?
>
> Did he mean to obfuscate the newness of the species *if* he wrote this
> and/or did the officials make assumptions that did not include the
> possibility it was new? Did he lie on the form and claim it was something
> he knew it wasn't: "Phrag schlimii"
>
> Did he know his authority to import/export Phrags did *not* include
> undescribed new species in this genus?
>
> Did the lower level permit checking and issuing officials on both sides of
> the border know what to do if they had a NEW species from a CITES appendix
> two protected genus passing by them? How often does that happen?
>
> I have always just been curious. Is this a gray area or should somebody
> have known to stop the plants from leaving Peru or coming into the
> country. Or did he HIDE the newness of the Phrag in order to get it into
> the country?
>
> Al
>
> And, esoterically messing with your mind: If it's an unidentified new
> species, how can it be considered a Phrag at all?
>
> Reka" <rhukari [at] rolmail.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1de592de2c3a38499896db [at] news.rolmail.net...
>> In article <hqudnfRCWpBK9-beRVn-vw [at] adelphia.com>, nospam [at] all.ever
>
>> Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
>> to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
>> species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
>> --
>> Reka
>>
>> This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
>> http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html
>
>

jamiemtl wrote:
> ok - so after searching through orchid digest and other forums it
> appears that people in the Orchid Community think that anti-smuggling
> laws are garbage. There has been a hidden undertone as to the
> "political reasons" for the ban and trade or orchids. Any hint as to
> what these are??
>

Orchid Fever will have more detail on this, but wayyyy back in the 1970s
when the CITES treaty was being written it was originally written for
trade in endangered animals. As a last minute item someone asked "what
about plants?" and forgot that many plants (including orcids) are very
fast growing and easy to produce from seed. Unlike animals, who only
produce few young which are very slow growing by comparision. (Like
elephants, pandas or tigers)

What is ridiculous - where orchids are concerned - is that orchids can
be replicated by the thousands in tissue culture labs. Or seed pods
produce 100,000 of seed, so an endangered plant could very easily be
brought to market merely by collecting one seed pod, which may or may
not damage the environment. Market forces would keep the prices low
because many plants would be available to sell. Instaead, the law
forbids you to collect any part of an endangered species. Rarity forces
the prices sky high. Illegal trade abounds. How are you going to tell
someone in Papua New Guinea not to collect that rare orchid and sell it
for more money than they'd earn in a year?

Additionally, orchids in the way of highway projects, or in areas soon
to be flooded by dams you are forbidden to collect and save the orchids
in those areas unless you have the appropriate permits. Therefore what
was an attempt to save endangered species wound up killing them by the
thousands of individual plants.

Read Orchid Fever.

K

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:16:53 +0100 in <MPG.1de596055f497b8f9896dc [at] news.rolmail.net> Reka <rhukari [at] rolmail.net> wrote:
> In article <slrndnmqlo.h50.pakrat [at] mouse.private.neotoma.org>,
> pakrat [at] localhost.private.neotoma.org says...
>
>> You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
>> for seed banks.
> I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
> general smuggling of plant material into the States?

General smuggling of plant materials.


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

My 2 cents on this one: In very small part, some countries are very
possessive about their native orchids. E.g., Belize issues salvage permits
for the collection of orchids in areas scheduled to be logged, but the
inspectors don't like to pass Enc. cochleata because it's their national
flower. And if you don't have an export permit from the country of origin,
you shouldn't get an iimport permit from the US. But, when not in flower,
Enc. cochleata looks very much like a couple other Encyclia species ... and
if labelled as one of those others, it will probably get permitted out, and
therefore in. Likewise with Peru and kovachii.

The bigger issue is, to my mind, more bureaucratic stupidity, and lack of
funding, rather than political. Orchids (and other plants) somehow got
lumped in with animals, in CITES, even though very different considerations
apply. Also, the inspectors don't generally know much about orchids (some
are better than others, but as civil servants, even the idiots have what
appears to be life tenure). So, they make a lot of mistakes -- sometimes
passing mislabelled plants (which can happen innocently -- I can't
positively tell Schomb brysiana from Schomb. tibicinis when they're not in
flower -- it's not always intentional smuggling), sometimes turning away
perfectly legitimate shipments, at great expense to all involved. Customs
couldn't possibly afford to hire experts for this job (nor would any of us
want to pay the taxes if they did), which means they also aren't likely to
be able to tell the difference between an artificially-propagated clone or
selfing or sibcross of Orchid X from an illegally wild-collected Orchid X,
especially if the latter had been cleaned up with a few months of nursery
growth. So rather than take the chance of a few illegal wild collections
getting through, they ban the whole thing, or at least make it very
difficult to move even the artificially-propagated plants. Which is counter
to the purpose of the whole thing, because if the propagations were readily
available, most people wouldn't want the wild-collected plants.

We have a similar thing going on near us here in South Florida. Acres and
acres of land around us are being cleared for new developments, and there
are LOTS of our Florida native, Enc. tampensis, in the trees that are being
cut down. But the authorities will only issue salvage permits to
non-profit groups, and the only two I know of that have actually gotten such
permits don't have the funds or personnel to actually go rescue the plants.
So all these orchids are being destroyed, rather than letting professional
growers go collect them.

If I could get such a permit, I would go get them. Yes, I would sell most
of them -- I am, at least theoretically, a for-profit business. But I would
be pleased to donate a reasonable percentage of them to an institution that
would preserve them -- another resource that's in short supply, I assume for
lack of funding. And even the ones I sold would have a better prognosis
than just being destroyed in the clearing process. Most customers who buy
that type of plant naturalize them in their trees, where they even have some
chance of spreading naturally. But I'm told it's an enforcement issue --
the authorities have no way of telling whether the plants came from areas
being cleared, or protected areas, so they've chosen to just not allow it.
Kenni





"jamiemtl" <jamiefw [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132162422.823902.183160 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> ok - so after searching through orchid digest and other forums it
> appears that people in the Orchid Community think that anti-smuggling
> laws are garbage. There has been a hidden undertone as to the
> "political reasons" for the ban and trade or orchids. Any hint as to
> what these are??
>

OK as to Kovach and the phrag. As far as I know he didn't have any
paperwork at all. No import/export forms filled out correctly or
incorrectly, nothing, nada, zilch, zippo. As far as I know he was on
vacation, saw this plant in a roadside cart, grabbed it quick! and ran
for home.

Personally I think he was just so excited he just kept his mouth shut
about his discovery and got it home as fast as possible, gave it to
Selby for ID, said "name it for me" and split for home to dump is bags
and get cleaned up. Never thinking about CITES, only thinking he had
something no one had ever seen before! How exciting!

Then like you say the doodoo hit the fan and the rest is history.

I'm betting you are right about Peru waking up after the fact and
getting ticked off about the plant escaping their country. If that
hadn't happened I'll bet everyone concerned never would have had to
explain a thing.

Now, what you say about buying a plant labelled one way and having it
actually be something entirely other happens quite alot. Why isn't
*that* high crimes and misdemeanors? Just because its not a phrag?

K

Al wrote:
> I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
> Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray area
> where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species. What did
> he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the way to
> Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits the big
> blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species. I don't
> know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present his new find
> to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to Shelby because Shelby
> was the botany department he knew of that could do the work.
>
> Your example is one way plants are smuggled, for sure. No names are needed.
> I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
> time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
> were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
> curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
> flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
> picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It is
> clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just new to
> me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I bought
> Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa and when
> it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No, I think I'll
> keep for all those times I bought something rare (not necessarily from this
> man) and got Phal equestris instead.
>
>
> "K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:JfmdnQD4Feg4_ebenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
>>I knew I'd confuse the issue by mentioning kovachii or any names at all.
>>I'm sorry I ever answered the original question. My answer was in regard
>>to HOW orchids could be smuggled using a CODE. Not about kovachii or
>>anything/anyone else. Substitute X and Y for plant names if you prefer.
>>
>>K
>>
>>Al wrote:
>>
>>>With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened.
>>>I don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your
>>>hypothetical example suggests it is done.
>>>
>>>I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
>>>import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of
>>>by accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and
>>>shouldn't have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have
>>>always kind of believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one
>>>of their native plants had made it into the US to be described by a US
>>>authority and that until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind
>>>of gray area in it that would allow undescribed material to be exported
>>>so easily. It has always seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area
>>>and not at all doing what you describe below as smuggling. But my
>>>assumptions are probably too simplified.
>>>
>>>He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
>>>but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
>>>correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
>>>after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done
>>>when this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in
>>>their lap?
>>>
>>>K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>jamiemtl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
>>>>>they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
>>>>>with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
>>>>>website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
>>>>>were? Does anyone have any further information?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.
>>>>
>>>>To answer your question about how this is done.
>>>>
>>>>If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
>>>>mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant
>>>>stuffs.
>>>>
>>>>One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
>>>>orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
>>>>tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
>>>>label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
>>>>numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll
>>>>put a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph
>>>>cernua' and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask
>>>>what '1167' is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but to
>>>>a customs agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like a
>>>>"code".
>>>>
>>>>Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
>>>>like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.
>>>>
>>>>So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of paperwork
>>>>saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like Phragmipedium
>>>>schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS (endangered species)
>>>>permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork says item #123 is Phrag
>>>>schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy Phrag kovachii (an example
>>>>only), a plant people would kill for. The customs agents look over his
>>>>shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are coming in, but they really have
>>>>no idea WHAT they are because one out of bloom phrag looks pretty much
>>>>like another. You pick up the plants at the customs house. Your cohort
>>>>has emailed you the real list, stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing!
>>>>You're in the money. You contact your friends who you know will want
>>>>the plants no matter what the cost, and you laugh all the way to the
>>>>bank. Unless you are George Norris, who - according the the feds - never
>>>>deleted his email or cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail.
>>>>Then you wind up in prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag.
>>>>kovachii, Selby Gardens and Michael Kovach were, I just used those
>>>>species as an example.
>>>>
>>>>I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!
>>>>
>>>>If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to find
>>>>Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served their
>>>>search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>>>>
>>>>You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled
>>>>the back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to
>>>>sell in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours at
>>>>plant identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than
>>>>that, but there's only so much I can write at one time.
>>>>
>>>>K Barrett
>>>
>>>
>

wow, this is amazing. i love it! i'm reading Orchid Fever right
now..and who knows, maybe by tomorrow I'll go out and by myself a few
orchids!!!

jamiemtl wrote:
> wow, this is amazing. i love it! i'm reading Orchid Fever right
> now..and who knows, maybe by tomorrow I'll go out and by myself a few
> orchids!!!
>


Abandon all hope oh ye who enter here...

I occurs to me that you may not know what sorts of flowers we are
talking about.

I believe the first chapter of Orchid Fever opens in the jungles of
Papua New Guinea, with Eric Hansen explaining to a tribesman why he'll
spend more money that the tribesman can conceive of just to take
pictures of an orchid considered common to the tribesman... That orchid
is called Paphiopedilum sanderianum. The claim to fame of this orchid
are its petals that can grow alomst a yard in length.
http://www.orchidsonline.com.au/species1354.html

Here's one I found from Chuck Aker's page, I hope the link works.
http://www.flasksbychuckacker.com/images/image_pages/sanderi anumjm.html

and heres an itty bitty picture of how long the petals can get (small
photo off to the left) http://www.iosoc.com/forward-2/products.htm

The Phragmipedium kovachii from Peru can be seen here:
http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

http://www.peruorchids.com/galeria/p/phragmipedium/phragmipe dium-peruvianum/Phragmipedium-peruvianum.htm

Compare that to any of the other phrags and you'll see why its so hot.
http://www.paphiopedilum.org.uk/phragmipedium.htm

K Barrett

There was a short sidebar-like blurb in the AOS magazine "Orchids" several
months written by a CITES employee that said the Peruvian government had
issued export permits for flasks of kovachii to an American destination
....so it is already here in the US legally although where I'm sure I can't
say...

"K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zICdnS8HIfeodObenZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> OK as to Kovach and the phrag. As far as I know he didn't have any
> paperwork at all. No import/export forms filled out correctly or
> incorrectly, nothing, nada, zilch, zippo. As far as I know he was on
> vacation, saw this plant in a roadside cart, grabbed it quick! and ran for
> home.
>
> Personally I think he was just so excited he just kept his mouth shut
> about his discovery and got it home as fast as possible, gave it to Selby
> for ID, said "name it for me" and split for home to dump is bags and get
> cleaned up. Never thinking about CITES, only thinking he had something no
> one had ever seen before! How exciting!
>
> Then like you say the doodoo hit the fan and the rest is history.
>
> I'm betting you are right about Peru waking up after the fact and getting
> ticked off about the plant escaping their country. If that hadn't happened
> I'll bet everyone concerned never would have had to explain a thing.
>
> Now, what you say about buying a plant labelled one way and having it
> actually be something entirely other happens quite alot. Why isn't *that*
> high crimes and misdemeanors? Just because its not a phrag?
>
> K
>
> Al wrote:
>> I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
>> Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray
>> area where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species.
>> What did he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the
>> way to Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits
>> the big blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species.
>> I don't know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present
>> his new find to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to
>> Shelby because Shelby was the botany department he knew of that could do
>> the work.
>>
>> Your example is one way plants are smuggled, for sure. No names are
>> needed. I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies
>> all the time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than
>> what they were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as
>> Asctm curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
>> flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
>> picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It
>> is clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just
>> new to me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I
>> bought Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa
>> and when it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No,
>> I think I'll keep for all those times I bought something rare (not
>> necessarily from this man) and got Phal equestris instead.
>>
>>
>> "K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:JfmdnQD4Feg4_ebenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>>I knew I'd confuse the issue by mentioning kovachii or any names at all.
>>>I'm sorry I ever answered the original question. My answer was in regard
>>>to HOW orchids could be smuggled using a CODE. Not about kovachii or
>>>anything/anyone else. Substitute X and Y for plant names if you prefer.
>>>
>>>K
>>>
>>>Al wrote:
>>>
>>>>With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all
>>>>happened. I don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner
>>>>your hypothetical example suggests it is done.
>>>>
>>>>I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
>>>>import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind
>>>>of by accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and
>>>>shouldn't have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have
>>>>always kind of believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one
>>>>of their native plants had made it into the US to be described by a US
>>>>authority and that until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind
>>>>of gray area in it that would allow undescribed material to be exported
>>>>so easily. It has always seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray
>>>>area and not at all doing what you describe below as smuggling. But my
>>>>assumptions are probably too simplified.
>>>>
>>>>He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court
>>>>case) but what should they have done differently? What would have been
>>>>the correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to
>>>>take after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have
>>>>done when this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material
>>>>dropped in their lap?
>>>>
>>>>K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:uvadnWF0AbVZXefenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jamiemtl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
>>>>>>they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
>>>>>>with these legit permits? It said on the US department of
>>>>>>agriculture's
>>>>>>website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
>>>>>>were? Does anyone have any further information?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.
>>>>>
>>>>>To answer your question about how this is done.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
>>>>>mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant
>>>>>stuffs.
>>>>>
>>>>>One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any
>>>>>other orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is
>>>>>by the tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling,
>>>>>vendors will label their plants by number and have a master list as to
>>>>>what all the numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are
>>>>>going they'll put a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants
>>>>>tagged '1167 Soph cernua' and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser
>>>>>have to know/ask what '1167' is. Pretty much this is standard
>>>>>operating procedure, but to a customs agent or a reporter looking for a
>>>>>story it could look like a "code".
>>>>>
>>>>>Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
>>>>>like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of
>>>>>paperwork saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like
>>>>>Phragmipedium schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS
>>>>>(endangered species) permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork
>>>>>says item #123 is Phrag schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy
>>>>>Phrag kovachii (an example only), a plant people would kill for. The
>>>>>customs agents look over his shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are
>>>>>coming in, but they really have no idea WHAT they are because one out
>>>>>of bloom phrag looks pretty much like another. You pick up the plants
>>>>>at the customs house. Your cohort has emailed you the real list,
>>>>>stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing! You're in the money. You
>>>>>contact your friends who you know will want the plants no matter what
>>>>>the cost, and you laugh all the way to the bank. Unless you are George
>>>>>Norris, who - according the the feds - never deleted his email or
>>>>>cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail. Then you wind up in
>>>>>prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag. kovachii, Selby Gardens
>>>>>and Michael Kovach were, I just used those species as an example.
>>>>>
>>>>>I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!
>>>>>
>>>>>If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to
>>>>>find Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served
>>>>>their search warrant. I thought it was chilling.
>>>>>
>>>>>You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled
>>>>>the back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to
>>>>>sell in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours
>>>>>at plant identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than
>>>>>that, but there's only so much I can write at one time.
>>>>>
>>>>>K Barrett
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Al wrote:
> There was a short sidebar-like blurb in the AOS magazine "Orchids" several
> months written by a CITES employee that said the Peruvian government had
> issued export permits for flasks of kovachii to an American destination
> ...so it is already here in the US legally although where I'm sure I can't
> say...
>
> "K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message

Jerry Fischer (Orchids Limited) has them (with papers), among others. I
thought about it...

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

> Abandon all hope oh ye who enter here...<

Cracking up in FL.........I knew the OP would get caught up in this, LOL!
"Join us..............Join us........."

Diana

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:37:59 -0500, Rob <rob [at] littlefrogfarm.com>
wrote:

>Al wrote:
>> There was a short sidebar-like blurb in the AOS magazine "Orchids" several
>> months written by a CITES employee that said the Peruvian government had
>> issued export permits for flasks of kovachii to an American destination
>> ...so it is already here in the US legally although where I'm sure I can't
>> say...
>>
>> "K Barrett" <mormodes [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>Jerry Fischer (Orchids Limited) has them (with papers), among others. I
>thought about it...
>
>Rob

I think Chuck Acker's has them too. I know there are some
restrictions on how soon they can be sold, compot or individual
pot. At least the agreement with the Peruvian gov. had a holding
period requirement.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php