Hi all,

Being the season that it is, I have a question about spiking. I know
that most orchids can be "forced" to spike through careful control of
temp, light, fertilizer...etc. However, the term "forced" has always
made me wonder: are we saying that these are plants that would normally
not be ready to spike? If we had a very very happy plant, and we just
let it be and did not manipulate anything, would it spike on its own
eventually just by virtue of the fact that it has all this extra energy
around? Or would it always put its energy into making new
leaves/roots...etc?

Cheers,
Xi Wang

Hi, Xi,

I will answer this only with respect to winter blooming Phalaenopsis. It's
my understanding that Phals in our collections aren't really being 'forced',
but rather exposed to conditions that mimic what they would encounter in
nature at a given time of year. I grow outside here in FL, and the weather
naturally cooperates in late October, November and December by giving the
plants the drop in temperature that they require to spike, without any help
from me.

For those growing in greenhouses (and I am no expert on that, having never
experienced greenhouse growing), I expect that they need to manipulate the
diurnal temperature range for these plants.

Now, what I consider 'forcing' would be done by a commercial grower in order
to have blooming plants for shows, etc, during a season when they would not
generally be in flower. I don't see anything wrong with that, but the plants
will likely return to their normal blooming season afterward, possibly
taking a season off to get some rest.

Just my understanding.

Diana

Hi Xi,

To get a healthy Phal to bloom requires a period of about a month where the
high temperature does not exceed 75 degrees. It is not exact and there are
exceptions. For a mature plant that has not been in bloom for a few months,
I do not thing it is a matter of the plant being ready, but instead it is
just a matter of when the trigger is pulled. I spike them in all phases of
leaf growth and do not think it is a factor. Until the trigger is pulled
the very very happy plant is going to just keep growing and getting happier.
I see it all the time. People will come to me and ask why their plant has
not rebloomed in years. For a healthy plant it is almost always one of two
things; the plant is not getting enough light or it is in a room that
occasionally warms to above 75 degrees (kitchens were people use the oven,
bathrooms with people who take long hot showers, bay windows, rooms with
lots of southern exposure). If we determine light is not the issue, I tell
people to move the plant to a cooler room around Thanksgiving until they see
a spike coming. For the people that report back, this almost always works.
The plants that have not bloomed for a couple of years often put on real
shows.

Pat

"Xi Wang" <tachyon_flux [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SVllf.57509$Eq5.13018 [at] pd7tw1no...
> Hi all,
>
> Being the season that it is, I have a question about spiking. I know that
> most orchids can be "forced" to spike through careful control of temp,
> light, fertilizer...etc. However, the term "forced" has always made me
> wonder: are we saying that these are plants that would normally not be
> ready to spike? If we had a very very happy plant, and we just let it be
> and did not manipulate anything, would it spike on its own eventually just
> by virtue of the fact that it has all this extra energy around? Or would
> it always put its energy into making new leaves/roots...etc?
>
> Cheers,
> Xi Wang

Diana's understanding is pretty accurate. To the extent of my research, no
one really knows what causes the summer-blooming Phals and Doritis to
initiate spikes. If someone does know, please clue me in!

But for the vast majority of Phals and Dtps. that generally bloom in winter
or early spring, the biggest and most reliable trigger to induce new
inflorescences is a diurnal (day/night) temp change of somewhere around
12-15F. Adding magnesium to the fertilizer can also help, but I don't think
it will be enough without the temp change. Decreasing hours of daylight
(which happens naturally in fall) also helps, but the temp change is the
"biggie."

One way to "nudge" them is to water at sunset. This cools the roots more
quickly and "fools" them into thinking the temp change is present, if you're
on the borderline. But it carries a big risk of inviting fungal and
bacterial infections.

Now, once you've got this spike started, if it grows up in hot temps,
chances are it's going to be long and leggy, and not produce many flowers --
very disappointing. That's where that 75F max comes into play.

Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching lower
on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these bloomings,
too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is capable of on a
good primary blooming.
--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids
kenni [at] jborchids.com


"Diana Kulaga" <diandfrankcat [at] bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5Inlf.4599$cA2.1758 [at] bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Hi, Xi,
>
> I will answer this only with respect to winter blooming Phalaenopsis. It's
> my understanding that Phals in our collections aren't really being
> 'forced', but rather exposed to conditions that mimic what they would
> encounter in nature at a given time of year. I grow outside here in FL,
> and the weather naturally cooperates in late October, November and
> December by giving the plants the drop in temperature that they require to
> spike, without any help from me.
>
> For those growing in greenhouses (and I am no expert on that, having never
> experienced greenhouse growing), I expect that they need to manipulate the
> diurnal temperature range for these plants.
>
> Now, what I consider 'forcing' would be done by a commercial grower in
> order to have blooming plants for shows, etc, during a season when they
> would not generally be in flower. I don't see anything wrong with that,
> but the plants will likely return to their normal blooming season
> afterward, possibly taking a season off to get some rest.
>
> Just my understanding.
>
> Diana
>

Kenni,

You might want to check out some of Dr. Wang (TX A&M) published research on
spiking Phals, it is good stuff. According to his research diurnal temp
change has little to do with spiking phals. My experience is consistent
with his results. While forcing in the summer months my diurnal temp change
will only be 5 to 8 degrees. My experience is also that once spiked, phals
can be grown warmer than 75 degrees without harm to the bud count or
elongating spikes. Where I spike Phals is not the same area or temp of
where I bloom them out.

The diurnal temp change is a bit of a hot button for me. Over a decade ago
I spent a lot of time and money trying to spike phals with diurnal temp
change. After a string of failures and at the suggestion of Dr. Wang I
started working with only high temps. Over a couple of years I developed a
pretty reliable way of spiking most phals. The only other company to try
forcing phals based on the diurnal temp change theory that I know of was
Butterfly in TX. They too failed.

Right now all my phals are naturally spiking. Nov through Feb is my natural
spiking season. The days are short and the sun is low and very weak. The
heaters often runs day and night to maintain 62 degrees. The shutters are
programmed to open at 75 and it has been days since I have seen them open.
This time of year my greenhouses have the smallest diurnal temp change of
the whole year. Today, like yesterday, the difference in greenhouse high
and low temps were 3 to 5 degrees. Sounds like the rest of the week will be
the same, but still the phals will spike.

Pat

"Kenni Judd" <kenni [at] REMOVEjborchids.com> wrote in message
news:V5GdnVYJZpNTvQvenZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d [at] adelphia.com...
> Diana's understanding is pretty accurate. To the extent of my research,
> no one really knows what causes the summer-blooming Phals and Doritis to
> initiate spikes. If someone does know, please clue me in!
>
> But for the vast majority of Phals and Dtps. that generally bloom in
> winter or early spring, the biggest and most reliable trigger to induce
> new inflorescences is a diurnal (day/night) temp change of somewhere
> around 12-15F. Adding magnesium to the fertilizer can also help, but I
> don't think it will be enough without the temp change. Decreasing hours of
> daylight (which happens naturally in fall) also helps, but the temp change
> is the "biggie."
>
> One way to "nudge" them is to water at sunset. This cools the roots more
> quickly and "fools" them into thinking the temp change is present, if
> you're on the borderline. But it carries a big risk of inviting fungal
> and bacterial infections.
>
> Now, once you've got this spike started, if it grows up in hot temps,
> chances are it's going to be long and leggy, and not produce many
> flowers -- very disappointing. That's where that 75F max comes into
> play.
>
> Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
> flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching
> lower on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these
> bloomings, too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is
> capable of on a good primary blooming.
> --
> Kenni Judd
> Juno Beach Orchids
> kenni [at] jborchids.com
>
>
> "Diana Kulaga" <diandfrankcat [at] bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:5Inlf.4599$cA2.1758 [at] bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> Hi, Xi,
>>
>> I will answer this only with respect to winter blooming Phalaenopsis.
>> It's my understanding that Phals in our collections aren't really being
>> 'forced', but rather exposed to conditions that mimic what they would
>> encounter in nature at a given time of year. I grow outside here in FL,
>> and the weather naturally cooperates in late October, November and
>> December by giving the plants the drop in temperature that they require
>> to spike, without any help from me.
>>
>> For those growing in greenhouses (and I am no expert on that, having
>> never experienced greenhouse growing), I expect that they need to
>> manipulate the diurnal temperature range for these plants.
>>
>> Now, what I consider 'forcing' would be done by a commercial grower in
>> order to have blooming plants for shows, etc, during a season when they
>> would not generally be in flower. I don't see anything wrong with that,
>> but the plants will likely return to their normal blooming season
>> afterward, possibly taking a season off to get some rest.
>>
>> Just my understanding.
>>
>> Diana
>>
>
>

My phal has me well and truly stumped.

It finished its second blooming for the year about a month ago -- it
seems to be on a winter and summer schedule, and the summer blooming
seems to have lasted longer than expected.

Right now I'm seeing something that looks like what Kenni Judd
described in another post.

>Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
>flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching lower
>on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these bloomings,
>too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is capable of on a
>good primary blooming.
>--
>Kenni Judd
>Juno Beach Orchids
>kenni [at] jborchids.com
>
It's still a bit early to tell, but it looks like it is a secondary
branch that is forming. That's the good news.

The bad news is that its roots seem to be rotting. I've cut off a
number of aerial roots (three or four) and I'm pretty sure some of the
roots that are in the mud mixture (Pro-Mix with extra perlite) are
also rotting. The aerial roots started developing problems at the
tips/ends. The best description I have of them is that they started to
look deflated. I let the damage back up the root a bit, just to see
what would happen, but I couldn't let that happen for very long, so
out came the scissors and the razor blades. Lopping off the root was a
bit of a challenge as the centre core/vein was still very green and
very strong.

The last new leaf the plant produced is now about
four-and-a-half-inches long and still seems to be growing well. I
don't see any signs of a new one coming along yet. The plant hasn't
produced any new aerial roots in about two months, which is a long
time for this plant.

Now I've read here that phals may try to blast buds if they think they
are dying. Is this what this plant is doing or can it continue to live
and thrive even as the roots are dying?

I had decided to repot the plant, but I wanted to give it a chance to
really finish its blooming cycle and for the spike to turn brown and
dry out. Of course it's not co-operating. I don't want to discourage
it from blooming, so I'm not overly excited about repotting it now,
but first and foremost, I really don't want to let the plant die.

I've tried to figure out if the pot I chose when I repotted it this
past spring was too large, or if the medium is breaking down much more
quickly than expected (I have notice for the last six weeks or so that
it doesn't seem to be drying out as quickly, and my watering schedule
is longer than normal), or if there is something else that has
suddenly gone wrong. Does anybody have any suggestions about what is
happening, why it is happening, and what I should do next?
--Vic

Hi,

Thanks for all that great info. I guess "trigger" would be a better
word than forced. Oh and in case anyone is wondering, no I am not
related to Dr. Wang lol....though perhaps in the distant past...?

Cheers,
Xi

Pat Brennan wrote:
> Kenni,
>
> You might want to check out some of Dr. Wang (TX A&M) published research on
> spiking Phals, it is good stuff. According to his research diurnal temp
> change has little to do with spiking phals. My experience is consistent
> with his results. While forcing in the summer months my diurnal temp change
> will only be 5 to 8 degrees. My experience is also that once spiked, phals
> can be grown warmer than 75 degrees without harm to the bud count or
> elongating spikes. Where I spike Phals is not the same area or temp of
> where I bloom them out.
>
> The diurnal temp change is a bit of a hot button for me. Over a decade ago
> I spent a lot of time and money trying to spike phals with diurnal temp
> change. After a string of failures and at the suggestion of Dr. Wang I
> started working with only high temps. Over a couple of years I developed a
> pretty reliable way of spiking most phals. The only other company to try
> forcing phals based on the diurnal temp change theory that I know of was
> Butterfly in TX. They too failed.
>
> Right now all my phals are naturally spiking. Nov through Feb is my natural
> spiking season. The days are short and the sun is low and very weak. The
> heaters often runs day and night to maintain 62 degrees. The shutters are
> programmed to open at 75 and it has been days since I have seen them open.
> This time of year my greenhouses have the smallest diurnal temp change of
> the whole year. Today, like yesterday, the difference in greenhouse high
> and low temps were 3 to 5 degrees. Sounds like the rest of the week will be
> the same, but still the phals will spike.
>
> Pat
>
> "Kenni Judd" <kenni [at] REMOVEjborchids.com> wrote in message
> news:V5GdnVYJZpNTvQvenZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d [at] adelphia.com...
>
>>Diana's understanding is pretty accurate. To the extent of my research,
>>no one really knows what causes the summer-blooming Phals and Doritis to
>>initiate spikes. If someone does know, please clue me in!
>>
>>But for the vast majority of Phals and Dtps. that generally bloom in
>>winter or early spring, the biggest and most reliable trigger to induce
>>new inflorescences is a diurnal (day/night) temp change of somewhere
>>around 12-15F. Adding magnesium to the fertilizer can also help, but I
>>don't think it will be enough without the temp change. Decreasing hours of
>>daylight (which happens naturally in fall) also helps, but the temp change
>>is the "biggie."
>>
>>One way to "nudge" them is to water at sunset. This cools the roots more
>>quickly and "fools" them into thinking the temp change is present, if
>>you're on the borderline. But it carries a big risk of inviting fungal
>>and bacterial infections.
>>
>>Now, once you've got this spike started, if it grows up in hot temps,
>>chances are it's going to be long and leggy, and not produce many
>>flowers -- very disappointing. That's where that 75F max comes into
>>play.
>>
>>Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
>>flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching
>>lower on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these
>>bloomings, too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is
>>capable of on a good primary blooming.
>>--
>>Kenni Judd
>>Juno Beach Orchids
>>kenni [at] jborchids.com
>>
>>
>>"Diana Kulaga" <diandfrankcat [at] bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>news:5Inlf.4599$cA2.1758 [at] bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>
>>>Hi, Xi,
>>>
>>>I will answer this only with respect to winter blooming Phalaenopsis.
>>>It's my understanding that Phals in our collections aren't really being
>>>'forced', but rather exposed to conditions that mimic what they would
>>>encounter in nature at a given time of year. I grow outside here in FL,
>>>and the weather naturally cooperates in late October, November and
>>>December by giving the plants the drop in temperature that they require
>>>to spike, without any help from me.
>>>
>>>For those growing in greenhouses (and I am no expert on that, having
>>>never experienced greenhouse growing), I expect that they need to
>>>manipulate the diurnal temperature range for these plants.
>>>
>>>Now, what I consider 'forcing' would be done by a commercial grower in
>>>order to have blooming plants for shows, etc, during a season when they
>>>would not generally be in flower. I don't see anything wrong with that,
>>>but the plants will likely return to their normal blooming season
>>>afterward, possibly taking a season off to get some rest.
>>>
>>>Just my understanding.
>>>
>>>Diana
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Vic,

First of all, you have to understand that phalaenopsis, like most orchids,
are epiphytes, and the species in nature tend to grow attached to the bark
of trees with their roots on the surface and hanging out in mid air.
Because of that adaptation, it is important to make sure that the potting
medium you have has lots of free air space to allow gas exchange to occur
freely at the roots. I doubt if most growers would find a "mud mix" to
provide enough air flow, and even so, keeping the moisture-air balance is
tough. I'd suggest moving the plant into a more open medium - one that
still holds a lot of moisture, but that has lots of so-called
"macroporosity", spaces between the particles. There is no single best
medium for everyone, so describing more of your growing conditions is likely
to get a variety of suggestions from us here.

Secondly, I think your attempt at remedies has negatively affected the
plant. As the aerial roots you removed were difficult due to the green
inner core, it sounds like they were still viable and functioning. The gray
coating is velamen, which is basically dead cells that act as a sponge to
capture water and pass it onto the living tissue. If they were stiff and
wrinkly, it was likely a symptom if insufficient watering or humidity, or
both.

If the plant only has a single viable root at this point, I think letting it
bloom again may mean the plant's demise. I would remove the flower spike
altogether, repot it into a more "open" mix, and get it well established
again. Once it is healthy, it will grow new spikes.

One more thing about phals roots and rotting - cold and wet is a terrible
combination, so this time of year it is important to keep the plant warm.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


<vicsage [at] yahoo.canada> wrote in message
news:43965949.43814891 [at] news.primus.ca...
> My phal has me well and truly stumped.
>
> It finished its second blooming for the year about a month ago -- it
> seems to be on a winter and summer schedule, and the summer blooming
> seems to have lasted longer than expected.
>
> Right now I'm seeing something that looks like what Kenni Judd
> described in another post.
>
>>Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
>>flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching
>>lower
>>on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these bloomings,
>>too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is capable of on a
>>good primary blooming.
>>--
>>Kenni Judd
>>Juno Beach Orchids
>>kenni [at] jborchids.com
>>
> It's still a bit early to tell, but it looks like it is a secondary
> branch that is forming. That's the good news.
>
> The bad news is that its roots seem to be rotting. I've cut off a
> number of aerial roots (three or four) and I'm pretty sure some of the
> roots that are in the mud mixture (Pro-Mix with extra perlite) are
> also rotting. The aerial roots started developing problems at the
> tips/ends. The best description I have of them is that they started to
> look deflated. I let the damage back up the root a bit, just to see
> what would happen, but I couldn't let that happen for very long, so
> out came the scissors and the razor blades. Lopping off the root was a
> bit of a challenge as the centre core/vein was still very green and
> very strong.
>
> The last new leaf the plant produced is now about
> four-and-a-half-inches long and still seems to be growing well. I
> don't see any signs of a new one coming along yet. The plant hasn't
> produced any new aerial roots in about two months, which is a long
> time for this plant.
>
> Now I've read here that phals may try to blast buds if they think they
> are dying. Is this what this plant is doing or can it continue to live
> and thrive even as the roots are dying?
>
> I had decided to repot the plant, but I wanted to give it a chance to
> really finish its blooming cycle and for the spike to turn brown and
> dry out. Of course it's not co-operating. I don't want to discourage
> it from blooming, so I'm not overly excited about repotting it now,
> but first and foremost, I really don't want to let the plant die.
>
> I've tried to figure out if the pot I chose when I repotted it this
> past spring was too large, or if the medium is breaking down much more
> quickly than expected (I have notice for the last six weeks or so that
> it doesn't seem to be drying out as quickly, and my watering schedule
> is longer than normal), or if there is something else that has
> suddenly gone wrong. Does anybody have any suggestions about what is
> happening, why it is happening, and what I should do next?
> --Vic

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:00:41 -0500, "Ray" <raybark [at] firstrays.com>
wrote:

>Vic,
>
>First of all, you have to understand that phalaenopsis, like most orchids,
>are epiphytes, and the species in nature tend to grow attached to the bark
>of trees with their roots on the surface and hanging out in mid air.
>Because of that adaptation, it is important to make sure that the potting
>medium you have has lots of free air space to allow gas exchange to occur
>freely at the roots. I doubt if most growers would find a "mud mix" to
>provide enough air flow, and even so, keeping the moisture-air balance is
>tough. I'd suggest moving the plant into a more open medium - one that
>still holds a lot of moisture, but that has lots of so-called
>"macroporosity", spaces between the particles. There is no single best
>medium for everyone, so describing more of your growing conditions is likely
>to get a variety of suggestions from us here.
>
Well I decided to go with the mud mix because it seemed to best choice
to replicate the original medium the orchid was thriving in, and up
until this point, it seemed to be working. As this no longer seems to
be the case, do you have any suggestions for a more open medium? Bark?
Something else?

My growing conditions are northern light window, typical southern
Ontario apartment. When the heat is on, I try to keep the temperature
between 71 and 74 Farenheit (there are no fine controls on my heater).
Since I hate a dry atmosphere, I run a humidifier usually to the point
where I can just see condensation starting to form on the windows.

>Secondly, I think your attempt at remedies has negatively affected the
>plant. As the aerial roots you removed were difficult due to the green
>inner core, it sounds like they were still viable and functioning. The gray
>coating is velamen, which is basically dead cells that act as a sponge to
>capture water and pass it onto the living tissue. If they were stiff and
>wrinkly, it was likely a symptom if insufficient watering or humidity, or
>both.

I have a couple of roots with the dry, scaly, grey/brown coating --
they are still there, as they just looked ugly but otherwise seem
healthy. (I am glad to hear that they are supposed to look like that.
I was a bit worried about those ones too.) I didn't cut those roots.
The roots I cut off were mushy and withered and hollow at the ends --
maybe the last inch or so of the root. In the "dead" part of the root
the core is dry and brittle and provides no resistance to cutting.
>
>If the plant only has a single viable root at this point, I think letting it
>bloom again may mean the plant's demise. I would remove the flower spike
>altogether, repot it into a more "open" mix, and get it well established
>again. Once it is healthy, it will grow new spikes.

I'm not sure how many viable roots it has. There are still three or
four large, healthy aerial roots. I don't know how many are
underground, but there are some, and some large ones.
>
>One more thing about phals roots and rotting - cold and wet is a terrible
>combination, so this time of year it is important to keep the plant warm.

I don't like being cold and wet either. <g> As I said, I try to adjust
the watering cycle to the needs of the plant. I make sure the medium
dries out before it gets watered again. The plant determines the
schedule, not the calendar.
>
>Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
>Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
>
>
><vicsage [at] yahoo.canada> wrote in message
>news:43965949.43814891 [at] news.primus.ca...
>> My phal has me well and truly stumped.
>>
>> It finished its second blooming for the year about a month ago -- it
>> seems to be on a winter and summer schedule, and the summer blooming
>> seems to have lasted longer than expected.
>>
>> Right now I'm seeing something that looks like what Kenni Judd
>> described in another post.
>>
>>>Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
>>>flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching
>>>lower
>>>on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these bloomings,
>>>too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is capable of on a
>>>good primary blooming.
>>>--
>>>Kenni Judd
>>>Juno Beach Orchids
>>>kenni [at] jborchids.com
>>>
>> It's still a bit early to tell, but it looks like it is a secondary
>> branch that is forming. That's the good news.
>>
>> The bad news is that its roots seem to be rotting. I've cut off a
>> number of aerial roots (three or four) and I'm pretty sure some of the
>> roots that are in the mud mixture (Pro-Mix with extra perlite) are
>> also rotting. The aerial roots started developing problems at the
>> tips/ends. The best description I have of them is that they started to
>> look deflated. I let the damage back up the root a bit, just to see
>> what would happen, but I couldn't let that happen for very long, so
>> out came the scissors and the razor blades. Lopping off the root was a
>> bit of a challenge as the centre core/vein was still very green and
>> very strong.
>>
>> The last new leaf the plant produced is now about
>> four-and-a-half-inches long and still seems to be growing well. I
>> don't see any signs of a new one coming along yet. The plant hasn't
>> produced any new aerial roots in about two months, which is a long
>> time for this plant.
>>
>> Now I've read here that phals may try to blast buds if they think they
>> are dying. Is this what this plant is doing or can it continue to live
>> and thrive even as the roots are dying?
>>
>> I had decided to repot the plant, but I wanted to give it a chance to
>> really finish its blooming cycle and for the spike to turn brown and
>> dry out. Of course it's not co-operating. I don't want to discourage
>> it from blooming, so I'm not overly excited about repotting it now,
>> but first and foremost, I really don't want to let the plant die.
>>
>> I've tried to figure out if the pot I chose when I repotted it this
>> past spring was too large, or if the medium is breaking down much more
>> quickly than expected (I have notice for the last six weeks or so that
>> it doesn't seem to be drying out as quickly, and my watering schedule
>> is longer than normal), or if there is something else that has
>> suddenly gone wrong. Does anybody have any suggestions about what is
>> happening, why it is happening, and what I should do next?
>> --Vic
>
>

Unless I go with Semi-Hydroponic culture (details at my website), I either
use sphagnum or a mix of 50% CHC and 25% each coarse charcoal and #4
perlite.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


<vicsage [at] yahoo.canada> wrote in message
news:4396fe83.1719005 [at] news.primus.ca...
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:00:41 -0500, "Ray" <raybark [at] firstrays.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Vic,
>>
>>First of all, you have to understand that phalaenopsis, like most orchids,
>>are epiphytes, and the species in nature tend to grow attached to the bark
>>of trees with their roots on the surface and hanging out in mid air.
>>Because of that adaptation, it is important to make sure that the potting
>>medium you have has lots of free air space to allow gas exchange to occur
>>freely at the roots. I doubt if most growers would find a "mud mix" to
>>provide enough air flow, and even so, keeping the moisture-air balance is
>>tough. I'd suggest moving the plant into a more open medium - one that
>>still holds a lot of moisture, but that has lots of so-called
>>"macroporosity", spaces between the particles. There is no single best
>>medium for everyone, so describing more of your growing conditions is
>>likely
>>to get a variety of suggestions from us here.
>>
> Well I decided to go with the mud mix because it seemed to best choice
> to replicate the original medium the orchid was thriving in, and up
> until this point, it seemed to be working. As this no longer seems to
> be the case, do you have any suggestions for a more open medium? Bark?
> Something else?
>
> My growing conditions are northern light window, typical southern
> Ontario apartment. When the heat is on, I try to keep the temperature
> between 71 and 74 Farenheit (there are no fine controls on my heater).
> Since I hate a dry atmosphere, I run a humidifier usually to the point
> where I can just see condensation starting to form on the windows.
>
>>Secondly, I think your attempt at remedies has negatively affected the
>>plant. As the aerial roots you removed were difficult due to the green
>>inner core, it sounds like they were still viable and functioning. The
>>gray
>>coating is velamen, which is basically dead cells that act as a sponge to
>>capture water and pass it onto the living tissue. If they were stiff and
>>wrinkly, it was likely a symptom if insufficient watering or humidity, or
>>both.
>
> I have a couple of roots with the dry, scaly, grey/brown coating --
> they are still there, as they just looked ugly but otherwise seem
> healthy. (I am glad to hear that they are supposed to look like that.
> I was a bit worried about those ones too.) I didn't cut those roots.
> The roots I cut off were mushy and withered and hollow at the ends --
> maybe the last inch or so of the root. In the "dead" part of the root
> the core is dry and brittle and provides no resistance to cutting.
>>
>>If the plant only has a single viable root at this point, I think letting
>>it
>>bloom again may mean the plant's demise. I would remove the flower spike
>>altogether, repot it into a more "open" mix, and get it well established
>>again. Once it is healthy, it will grow new spikes.
>
> I'm not sure how many viable roots it has. There are still three or
> four large, healthy aerial roots. I don't know how many are
> underground, but there are some, and some large ones.
>>
>>One more thing about phals roots and rotting - cold and wet is a terrible
>>combination, so this time of year it is important to keep the plant warm.
>
> I don't like being cold and wet either. <g> As I said, I try to adjust
> the watering cycle to the needs of the plant. I make sure the medium
> dries out before it gets watered again. The plant determines the
> schedule, not the calendar.
>>
>>Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
>>Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
>>
>>
>><vicsage [at] yahoo.canada> wrote in message
>>news:43965949.43814891 [at] news.primus.ca...
>>> My phal has me well and truly stumped.
>>>
>>> It finished its second blooming for the year about a month ago -- it
>>> seems to be on a winter and summer schedule, and the summer blooming
>>> seems to have lasted longer than expected.
>>>
>>> Right now I'm seeing something that looks like what Kenni Judd
>>> described in another post.
>>>
>>>>Phals with previously-bloomed spikes that are still green can make more
>>>>flowers, sometimes from the end, more often from a secondary branching
>>>>lower
>>>>on the stem, and these seem less dependent on temps, but these
>>>>bloomings,
>>>>too, are very disappointing compared to what the plant is capable of on
>>>>a
>>>>good primary blooming.
>>>>--
>>>>Kenni Judd
>>>>Juno Beach Orchids
>>>>kenni [at] jborchids.com
>>>>
>>> It's still a bit early to tell, but it looks like it is a secondary
>>> branch that is forming. That's the good news.
>>>
>>> The bad news is that its roots seem to be rotting. I've cut off a
>>> number of aerial roots (three or four) and I'm pretty sure some of the
>>> roots that are in the mud mixture (Pro-Mix with extra perlite) are
>>> also rotting. The aerial roots started developing problems at the
>>> tips/ends. The best description I have of them is that they started to
>>> look deflated. I let the damage back up the root a bit, just to see
>>> what would happen, but I couldn't let that happen for very long, so
>>> out came the scissors and the razor blades. Lopping off the root was a
>>> bit of a challenge as the centre core/vein was still very green and
>>> very strong.
>>>
>>> The last new leaf the plant produced is now about
>>> four-and-a-half-inches long and still seems to be growing well. I
>>> don't see any signs of a new one coming along yet. The plant hasn't
>>> produced any new aerial roots in about two months, which is a long
>>> time for this plant.
>>>
>>> Now I've read here that phals may try to blast buds if they think they
>>> are dying. Is this what this plant is doing or can it continue to live
>>> and thrive even as the roots are dying?
>>>
>>> I had decided to repot the plant, but I wanted to give it a chance to
>>> really finish its blooming cycle and for the spike to turn brown and
>>> dry out. Of course it's not co-operating. I don't want to discourage
>>> it from blooming, so I'm not overly excited about repotting it now,
>>> but first and foremost, I really don't want to let the plant die.
>>>
>>> I've tried to figure out if the pot I chose when I repotted it this
>>> past spring was too large, or if the medium is breaking down much more
>>> quickly than expected (I have notice for the last six weeks or so that
>>> it doesn't seem to be drying out as quickly, and my watering schedule
>>> is longer than normal), or if there is something else that has
>>> suddenly gone wrong. Does anybody have any suggestions about what is
>>> happening, why it is happening, and what I should do next?
>>> --Vic
>>
>>
>

Ray wrote:
> Unless I go with Semi-Hydroponic culture (details at my website), I either
> use sphagnum or a mix of 50% CHC and 25% each coarse charcoal and #4
> perlite.
>
That is also the mix I use for most things. Although for phals I have
moved entirely to a peat mix. Full circle...

I've started adding diatomite to my coconut mixes. In place of perlite,
or in addition to.



--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:58:08 -0500, Rob <rob [at] littlefrogfarm.com>
wrote:

>Ray wrote:
>> Unless I go with Semi-Hydroponic culture (details at my website), I either
>> use sphagnum or a mix of 50% CHC and 25% each coarse charcoal and #4
>> perlite.
>>
>That is also the mix I use for most things. Although for phals I have
>moved entirely to a peat mix. Full circle...
>
>I've started adding diatomite to my coconut mixes. In place of perlite,
>or in addition to.
>
>
>
>--
>Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
> 1) There is always room for one more orchid
> 2) There is always room for two more orchids
> 2a) See rule 1
> 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
> orchids, obtain more credit
>
So does anybody have any theories about why aerial roots would rot?
Some of them are barely even touching the potting mixture. I could
understand if they were waterlogged and underground and didn't have an
opportunity to dry out, but the ones that are exposed to the air
shouldn't do that, should they? Is there some other problem that I
possibly missing?
--Vic

Assuming that the plant is otherwise healthy (and from what you've written,
it doesn't seem to be in as bad condition as I originally thought), perhaps
the aerial roots didn't rot, but died back from *lack* of water. I've seen
that happen. The tips of the roots shrivel. Sometimes we forget that the
aerial roots might need more moisture than the ones in the pot, which are
surrounded by medium to maintain moisture.

Possible?

Diana

> So does anybody have any theories about why aerial roots would rot?
> Some of them are barely even touching the potting mixture. I could
> understand if they were waterlogged and underground and didn't have an
> opportunity to dry out, but the ones that are exposed to the air
> shouldn't do that, should they? Is there some other problem that I
> possibly missing?
> --Vic

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:42:33 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
<diandfrankcat [at] bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Assuming that the plant is otherwise healthy (and from what you've written,
>it doesn't seem to be in as bad condition as I originally thought), perhaps
>the aerial roots didn't rot, but died back from *lack* of water. I've seen
>that happen. The tips of the roots shrivel. Sometimes we forget that the
>aerial roots might need more moisture than the ones in the pot, which are
>surrounded by medium to maintain moisture.
>
>Possible?
>
>Diana

I guess that could be it. I notice I've been watering at longer
intervals -- say a week and a half versus a week (those are just
rough, rough estimates I think my intervals are actually a bit longer
than that) -- maybe I've pushed it too far trying to make sure that
the plant wasn't getting too much moisture.

I guess I'll just keep an eye on it and see what happens.
--Vic

Pat: I've heard about this from you and a couple others before (and have
read a couple of Wang's papers that are available online). But from years
of
observation in the South Florida area, I just don't see it working here.
Possibly some other factor is coming into play in our environment?
[Compared to
Texas, where I understand most of Wang's studies were done, although I
would think they would be similar]. But in any event, I can only speak from
what I've actually seen, in person, right here in our local environment,
over and over again.

The only quasi-local source we have for truly "forced" phals is one place
way
south of us, and they've never shared their specific methods with me. I
think they use the diurnal temp-change method, but maybe they're doing it
your way. Regardless, I don't like their product. On the few occasions
we've had to buy there,
I've been unhappy with the quality -- poor root systems, low
bud count, buds more prone to blasting than those grown more naturally,
etc., etc. We've ended up sitting on many of those for a season or more (we
won't sell substandard plants); in
more natural conditions, they make good roots and
strong spikes with good bud count, but not until Feb-Mar.

Other places in our general neighborhood (figure Orlando to Homestead) also
run cool-pads, keeping their max temps down,
but they don't usually have much availability before mid-January.

Without cool pads, in the natural environment other than heat to 50F, our
own crop is now
in spike and should be blooming out late January through February.

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids
kenni [at] jborchids.com



"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT [at] rica.net> wrote in message
news:11pcfnlm7nds743 [at] corp.supernews.com...
> Kenni,
>
> You might want to check out some of Dr. Wang (TX A&M) published research
> on spiking Phals, it is good stuff. According to his research diurnal
> temp change has little to do with spiking phals. My experience is
> consistent with his results. While forcing in the summer months my
> diurnal temp change will only be 5 to 8 degrees. My experience is also
> that once spiked, phals can be grown warmer than 75 degrees without harm
> to the bud count or elongating spikes. Where I spike Phals is not the
> same area or temp of where I bloom them out.
>
> The diurnal temp change is a bit of a hot button for me. Over a decade
> ago I spent a lot of time and money trying to spike phals with diurnal
> temp change. After a string of failures and at the suggestion of Dr. Wang
> I started working with only high temps. Over a couple of years I
> developed a pretty reliable way of spiking most phals. The only other
> company to try forcing phals based on the diurnal temp change theory that
> I know of was Butterfly in TX. They too failed.
>
> Right now all my phals are naturally spiking. Nov through Feb is my
> natural spiking season. The days are short and the sun is low and very
> weak. The heaters often runs day and night to maintain 62 degrees. The
> shutters are programmed to open at 75 and it has been days since I have
> seen them open. This time of year my greenhouses have the smallest diurnal
> temp change of the whole year. Today, like yesterday, the difference in
> greenhouse high and low temps were 3 to 5 degrees. Sounds like the rest
> of the week will be the same, but still the phals will spike.
>
> Pat