Can anyone help me make a decision?

I saw color break on a Cattleya and had it tested about two months ago.
I also picked 5 others to go also. They all came back with Odont.
Ringspot Virus and/or Cym. Mosaic Virus. None were clean by the ELISA
test. I WAS STUNNED. The plants were spread around my growing area.
Upon closer inspection of surrounding plants I took notice of sunken
areas on nearly all Cattleya leaves. The Oncidiums showed mottles on
the leaves. My Phals were quickly getting yellow and black bull's
eye spots and losing leaves. Can it really spread this fast? We moved
several months ago and the plants were packed together tightly for
shipping and then stressed by not being watered for 3 weeks. I have
noticed a general decline in my collection since then. The only
exceptions have been Paphs, Phrags, Masd., and some other misc.
botanicals.

So my two questions are:
1. Should I just discard everything that tested positive or looks
virused?
2. What about the genera not showing signs, are they susceptible or
possible carriers?

Thank you,
Jim

McGerm wrote:
> Can anyone help me make a decision?
>
> I saw color break on a Cattleya and had it tested about two months ago.
> I also picked 5 others to go also. They all came back with Odont.
> Ringspot Virus and/or Cym. Mosaic Virus. None were clean by the ELISA
> test. I WAS STUNNED. The plants were spread around my growing area.
> Upon closer inspection of surrounding plants I took notice of sunken
> areas on nearly all Cattleya leaves. The Oncidiums showed mottles on
> the leaves. My Phals were quickly getting yellow and black bull's
> eye spots and losing leaves. Can it really spread this fast? We moved
> several months ago and the plants were packed together tightly for
> shipping and then stressed by not being watered for 3 weeks. I have
> noticed a general decline in my collection since then. The only
> exceptions have been Paphs, Phrags, Masd., and some other misc.
> botanicals.
>
> So my two questions are:
> 1. Should I just discard everything that tested positive or looks
> virused?
> 2. What about the genera not showing signs, are they susceptible or
> possible carriers?
>
> Thank you,
> Jim

Wow, you ask tough questions! Maybe others will have a strong opinion
one way or the other so let's see what happens.
I do have some thoughts though. I'm thinking that it's possible to
spread virus by packing the plants tightly together but contact like
that might not spread virus in many cases. I'm thinking that if most of
your plants turn out to be virused now, then almost as many were
infected before your move. Maybe the stress of the move let some show
symptoms that were able to hide the symptoms before. Some of the
symptoms you describe might turn out to be a fungus problem but the fact
that you were 6 for 6 on the virus test can't be good.
If it was me in your situation, I would AT LEAST dump the questionable
plants that I didn't care for all that much and the ones that can easily
be replaced. Any new plants presumed to be virus free would be kept to
themselves as far away from the old plants as possible with no sharing
of tools of any kind.
If you have not taken the sterilization (or discard after one use) of
cutting tools, pots etc. very seriously, it's time to start.

Steve

I agree with Steve that they were already infected and the stress induced
the symptoms. Generally speaking, every disease to which an organism has
been exposed is in it; it's just a matter of balance with the immune system
that keeps it at bay. (Not that plants have immune systems, per se...).

Likewise, if they are not declining, it is likely that the paphs, phrags,
etc., simply are not infected by the particular viruses present.

Personally, I'd dispose of all of the questionable and declining plants,
spray the living crap out of the remaining plants and growing area, tools,
etc. with Physan, and be more careful in the future. In addition to
contaminated tools, it is common for such pathogens to be transmitted by
water droplets bouncing off of- or dripping from an infected plant onto
another, so more careful watering practices may be warranted, as well..

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Steve" <tlswilso [at] aol.com> wrote in message
news:cqGdnZSTSoM4eZ7ZRVn-vA [at] adelphia.com...
> McGerm wrote:
>> Can anyone help me make a decision?
>>
>> I saw color break on a Cattleya and had it tested about two months ago.
>> I also picked 5 others to go also. They all came back with Odont.
>> Ringspot Virus and/or Cym. Mosaic Virus. None were clean by the ELISA
>> test. I WAS STUNNED. The plants were spread around my growing area.
>> Upon closer inspection of surrounding plants I took notice of sunken
>> areas on nearly all Cattleya leaves. The Oncidiums showed mottles on
>> the leaves. My Phals were quickly getting yellow and black bull's
>> eye spots and losing leaves. Can it really spread this fast? We moved
>> several months ago and the plants were packed together tightly for
>> shipping and then stressed by not being watered for 3 weeks. I have
>> noticed a general decline in my collection since then. The only
>> exceptions have been Paphs, Phrags, Masd., and some other misc.
>> botanicals.
>>
>> So my two questions are:
>> 1. Should I just discard everything that tested positive or looks
>> virused?
>> 2. What about the genera not showing signs, are they susceptible or
>> possible carriers?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Jim
>
> Wow, you ask tough questions! Maybe others will have a strong opinion one
> way or the other so let's see what happens.
> I do have some thoughts though. I'm thinking that it's possible to spread
> virus by packing the plants tightly together but contact like that might
> not spread virus in many cases. I'm thinking that if most of your plants
> turn out to be virused now, then almost as many were infected before your
> move. Maybe the stress of the move let some show symptoms that were able
> to hide the symptoms before. Some of the symptoms you describe might turn
> out to be a fungus problem but the fact that you were 6 for 6 on the virus
> test can't be good.
> If it was me in your situation, I would AT LEAST dump the questionable
> plants that I didn't care for all that much and the ones that can easily
> be replaced. Any new plants presumed to be virus free would be kept to
> themselves as far away from the old plants as possible with no sharing of
> tools of any kind.
> If you have not taken the sterilization (or discard after one use) of
> cutting tools, pots etc. very seriously, it's time to start.
>
> Steve

Jim: Your situation does indeed sound grim. False positives are not
unknown in orchid virus testing, but 6 for 6 sounds unlikely. So it seems
that a serious triage is in order. The 6 that tested positive should for
sure hit the dumpster [NOT the compost heap, if you have one]. And then any
which look "clean" should be far separated from the rest.

Virus is unfortunately not susceptible to visual diagnosis. A plant that
looks gorgeously healthy may be a carrier, and one that "looks" virused may
in fact not have it. Except for contaminated cutting tools, no one seems to
be sure how else it can spread -- water, as previously mentioned, may be one
possibility; biting insects may be another (the scale or mealie bites into a
virused plant, then into its neighbor). But in the absence of open
wounds, packing tightly shouldn't do it. Overcrowding is, however, a prime
way to spread fungal and bacterial infections.

Pragmatically, I suggest a "cost approach." What would it cost to replace
this orchid (assuming you can), compared to what it will cost you in time,
stress and chemicals to try to save it (assuming it has a curable
infection), while keeping it isolated so it doesn't infect anything else?
And then for the ones you can't replace, the question becomes "How much do
you love it?"

In any event, you will still need to disinfect your whole growing area,
before bringing in any replacements -- including the "clean" area.. Don't
just spray the plants, spray the benches, the floor, the walls if you have
them ...
--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids
kenni [at] jborchids.com


"McGerm" <Mc.Germ [at] verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1141095438.041756.289260 [at] i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Can anyone help me make a decision?
>
> I saw color break on a Cattleya and had it tested about two months ago.
> I also picked 5 others to go also. They all came back with Odont.
> Ringspot Virus and/or Cym. Mosaic Virus. None were clean by the ELISA
> test. I WAS STUNNED. The plants were spread around my growing area.
> Upon closer inspection of surrounding plants I took notice of sunken
> areas on nearly all Cattleya leaves. The Oncidiums showed mottles on
> the leaves. My Phals were quickly getting yellow and black bull's
> eye spots and losing leaves. Can it really spread this fast? We moved
> several months ago and the plants were packed together tightly for
> shipping and then stressed by not being watered for 3 weeks. I have
> noticed a general decline in my collection since then. The only
> exceptions have been Paphs, Phrags, Masd., and some other misc.
> botanicals.
>
> So my two questions are:
> 1. Should I just discard everything that tested positive or looks
> virused?
> 2. What about the genera not showing signs, are they susceptible or
> possible carriers?
>
> Thank you,
> Jim
>

Thank you for the comments. I honestly cannot remember the last time I
cut an orchid. I usually break things apart on repotting. I grow
under lights and am very limited for space, so the several hundred that
I have are almost all something special, especially the Cattleyas. All
six of the plants that tested positive were something special. All but
one were divisions of the original awarded plant, and the last one was
from an old collection circa 1910-1920. I have shared pieces in trade
or for sale at my former local society. I hope that I will be able to
get divisions back. I personally think the water theory has some merit
especially since I grow close packed in tiers, I also think my own
hands have been an issue, but I have a sinking feeling that the viruses
were there in a latent form all along.

McGerm wrote:
> Thank you for the comments. I honestly cannot remember the last time I
> cut an orchid. I usually break things apart on repotting. I grow
> under lights and am very limited for space, so the several hundred that
> I have are almost all something special, especially the Cattleyas. All
> six of the plants that tested positive were something special. All but
> one were divisions of the original awarded plant, and the last one was
> from an old collection circa 1910-1920. I have shared pieces in trade
> or for sale at my former local society. I hope that I will be able to
> get divisions back. I personally think the water theory has some merit
> especially since I grow close packed in tiers, I also think my own
> hands have been an issue, but I have a sinking feeling that the viruses
> were there in a latent form all along.
>

Interesting. Your last sentence sums it all up I think. My comment about
the stress bringing out symptoms seems even more reasonable now that we
know the history of those plants. Old plants like that go back to the
days before they knew about viruses and when nobody was taking
precautions. Even divisions of newer plants are more likely to have
virus because you don't know what previous owners were doing before you
got your division. New seedlings are much more likely to be virus free.
Even first time mericlones of fairly new plants are reasonably safe.

It seems that you realize that hands can spread virus too, even if not
quite as easily as a cutting tool. When you pull apart a plant, you
certainly can get virused sap on you hands. If you then work on another
plant you may infect it. Even if you don't touch the broken rhizome,
it's pretty hard to avoid touching broken roots when you are cleaning
them up or fitting them into the pot.

If you do keep those old favorite Catts, given good conditions they may
go back to growing healthy looking new growths. They will always be
infected of course. Even if you get divisions from people you have
shared with in the past, what you get back may be virused too. They may
have been virused when you shared them. Be diligent with the tools
(hands too. consider using vinyl or latex gloves.), watch the drip
problem, and keep new plants away from drips and contact with old plants.

When I divide or repot some plants, I lay down a couple sheets of clean
newspaper for each one. I use new vinyl gloves with each plant (unless I
am working on only one that day). I have the habit of working on the
most likely clean plant first and the most likely to be virused plant
last. I doubt if that makes much difference but I just tend to do it
anyway.

Steve