#1: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-20 14:08:40 by Tony Pacc
I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so now
I am trying cocoa shells for mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca bean
shells as mulch.Thanks
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#2: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-20 15:26:00 by dr-solo
lots and lots of fungus. rather useless as mulch. smells nice tho. Ingrid
"Tony Pacc" <tpacc@execpc.com> wrote:
>I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so now
>I am trying cocoa shells for mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca bean
>shells as mulch.Thanks
>
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#3: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-20 16:30:19 by Bill R
Tony Pacc wrote:
> I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so now
> I am trying cocoa shells for mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca bean
> shells as mulch.Thanks
>
>
If you have a fungus problem with wood chips you are likely going to
have the same type of problem with cocoa shells.
I had a neighbor that used them. The shells had a very nice smell when
they first put them down but after a rainy spring the smelled like baby
vomit.
There are many other mulches you can use. Stop by your local garden
center and see what they recommend for you area.
--
Bill R. (Ohio Valley, U.S.A)
Gardening for over 40 years
To see pictures from my garden visit http://members.iglou.com/brosen
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#4: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-20 20:40:32 by hob
"Tony Pacc" <tpacc@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:129fp5471u93959@corp.supernews.com...
> I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so
now
> I am trying cocoa shells for mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca
bean
> shells as mulch.Thanks
My experience is that if you put them on too thick, they mold
>
>
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#5: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-21 00:31:45 by enigma
Bill R <no_weeds_brosen@iglou.com> wrote in
news:44980681$1_1@news.iglou.com:
> Tony Pacc wrote:
>> I had a problem with wood chips against the house
>> (artillery fungus),so now I am trying cocoa shells for
>> mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca bean shells as
>> mulch.Thanks
>>
>>
>
> If you have a fungus problem with wood chips you are likely
> going to have the same type of problem with cocoa shells.
they are also deadly to dogs.
lee
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#6: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-21 12:51:23 by kiewicz
Tony Pacc said:
>
>I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so
>now I am trying cocoa shells for mulch, has anybody have an opinion on
>coca bean shells as mulch.Thanks
>
I use cocoa shells, but almost always mixed with shredded leaves.
When used alone they tend to clump and mold when put down in anything
more than a very thin layer.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)
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#7: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-21 15:18:07 by elaine_h
Rebecca on the garden show "Rebecca's Garden" uses it for the smell and as a
slug deteriorate. I do not have any personal experience with it.
Elaine
"Tony Pacc" <tpacc@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:129fp5471u93959@corp.supernews.com...
>I had a problem with wood chips against the house (artillery fungus),so now
> I am trying cocoa shells for mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca
> bean
> shells as mulch.Thanks
>
>
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#8: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-21 17:19:23 by dr-solo
you gotta have dogs willing to eat a whole lot of it. none of my 6 dogs ever showed
any interest in eating any. Ingrid
enigma <enigma@empire.net> wrote:
>Bill R <no_weeds_brosen@iglou.com> wrote in
>news:44980681$1_1@news.iglou.com:
>
>> Tony Pacc wrote:
>>> I had a problem with wood chips against the house
>>> (artillery fungus),so now I am trying cocoa shells for
>>> mulch,has anybody have an opinion on coca bean shells as
>>> mulch.Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If you have a fungus problem with wood chips you are likely
>> going to have the same type of problem with cocoa shells.
>
> they are also deadly to dogs.
>lee
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#9: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-22 02:32:27 by enigma
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com wrote in
news:44990ed7.420243562@news-server.wi.rr.com:
> you gotta have dogs willing to eat a whole lot of it. none
> of my 6 dogs ever showed any interest in eating any.
acually, it doesn't take much, especially with a small dog. i
guess some dogs really go for chocolate, but none of mine ever
have either.
another thing to watch out for with dogs is grapes & raisins.
they cause kidney failure. my BIL lost a dog to raisins last
fall. the 4 year old dropped her box (snack size) of raisins
as they were going out. when they got home, the dog was near
dead. the vet couldn't save it. it was a Rottie cross, so not
a small dog.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell
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#10: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-22 22:26:14 by dr-solo
my dogs are crazy for chocolate. of course most chocolate bars have very little
chocolate in them. still, none of my dogs have showed any interest in cocoa bean
mulch. stuff is pretty useless anyway, not worth the expense.
my dogs eat grapes and raisins all the time, in fact we had one springer-lab mix used
to eat all the ripe grapes right off the vine up as high as he could reach. never
had a problem with them. and there is documentation of foxes and wolves eating
pounds of grapes when they can get em. turns out canines have a sweet tooth. again,
doesnt hurt the foxes and wolves.
in the case of chocolate they have identified the compound that is toxic, in the case
of grapes they cannot find anything toxic, so it appears to be anecdotal, isolated
and/or allergic type reaction of individual dogs. every year it seems there is
something "new" that is deadly to dogs or cats. the latest is xylitol as in gum
containing this artificial sweetener.
YMMV. Ingrid
enigma <enigma@empire.net> wrote:
>dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com wrote in
>news:44990ed7.420243562@news-server.wi.rr.com:
>
>> you gotta have dogs willing to eat a whole lot of it. none
>> of my 6 dogs ever showed any interest in eating any.
>
> acually, it doesn't take much, especially with a small dog. i
>guess some dogs really go for chocolate, but none of mine ever
>have either.
> another thing to watch out for with dogs is grapes & raisins.
>they cause kidney failure. my BIL lost a dog to raisins last
>fall. the 4 year old dropped her box (snack size) of raisins
>as they were going out. when they got home, the dog was near
>dead. the vet couldn't save it. it was a Rottie cross, so not
>a small dog.
>lee
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#11: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-23 20:50:28 by Val
http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/raisins.asp
<dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com> wrote in message
news:449aa688.524612687@news-server.wi.rr.com...
> my dogs are crazy for chocolate. of course most chocolate bars have very
> little
> chocolate in them. still, none of my dogs have showed any interest in
> cocoa bean
> mulch. stuff is pretty useless anyway, not worth the expense.
> my dogs eat grapes and raisins all the time, in fact we had one
> springer-lab mix used
> to eat all the ripe grapes right off the vine up as high as he could
> reach. never
> had a problem with them. and there is documentation of foxes and wolves
> eating
> pounds of grapes when they can get em. turns out canines have a sweet
> tooth. again,
> doesnt hurt the foxes and wolves.
> in the case of chocolate they have identified the compound that is toxic,
> in the case
> of grapes they cannot find anything toxic, so it appears to be anecdotal,
> isolated
> and/or allergic type reaction of individual dogs. every year it seems
> there is
> something "new" that is deadly to dogs or cats. the latest is xylitol as
> in gum
> containing this artificial sweetener.
> YMMV. Ingrid
>
> enigma <enigma@empire.net> wrote:
>
>>dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com wrote in
>>news:44990ed7.420243562@news-server.wi.rr.com:
>>
>>> you gotta have dogs willing to eat a whole lot of it. none
>>> of my 6 dogs ever showed any interest in eating any.
>>
>> acually, it doesn't take much, especially with a small dog. i
>>guess some dogs really go for chocolate, but none of mine ever
>>have either.
>> another thing to watch out for with dogs is grapes & raisins.
>>they cause kidney failure. my BIL lost a dog to raisins last
>>fall. the 4 year old dropped her box (snack size) of raisins
>>as they were going out. when they got home, the dog was near
>>dead. the vet couldn't save it. it was a Rottie cross, so not
>>a small dog.
>>lee
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> website.
> I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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#12: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-25 00:49:10 by dr-solo
the problem is ... this is anecdotal. There are no controlled studies showing the
toxicity of grapes. the dog is sick, people bring in the dog, the vet asks what the
dog ate, and what the human can remember renders it anecdotal. obviously, lots of
dogs, foxes and wolves eat grapes without getting sick or dying. they love them,
dont have an aversion which is expected if they were routinely toxic as evolution
takes care of instilling avoidance. why grapes may be toxic for some dogs is not
understood. SO FAR, no toxic compounds have been found in grapes. No scientific
studies have been done. Ingrid
"Val" <ya-shur@yabetcha.com> wrote:
>http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/raisins.asp
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#13: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-25 18:01:05 by enigma
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com wrote in
news:449e6be9.706212984@news-server.wi.rr.com:
> the problem is ... this is anecdotal. There are no
> controlled studies showing the toxicity of grapes. the dog
> is sick, people bring in the dog, the vet asks what the dog
> ate, and what the human can remember renders it anecdotal.
> obviously, lots of dogs, foxes and wolves eat grapes
> without getting sick or dying. they love them, dont have
> an aversion which is expected if they were routinely toxic
> as evolution takes care of instilling avoidance. why
> grapes may be toxic for some dogs is not understood. SO
> FAR, no toxic compounds have been found in grapes. No
> scientific studies have been done.
first, foxes are not canus sp. so we'll not discuss them.
where & when have you seen wolves eating grapes?
i don't care if you feed your dog grapes, because it's not my
dog. some idiots give thier dogs onions & garlic. they're the
ones who have short lived dogs or high vet bills. not my
problem.
but for those who may be interested, it is nice to know what
human food items should not be given to dogs because they can
prove fatal.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell
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#14: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-25 23:44:01 by paghatSPAM-ME-NOT
In article <449e6be9.706212984@news-server.wi.rr.com>,
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com wrote:
> the problem is ... this is anecdotal. There are no controlled studies
showing the
> toxicity of grapes. the dog is sick, people bring in the dog, the vet
asks what the
> dog ate, and what the human can remember renders it anecdotal.
obviously, lots of
> dogs, foxes and wolves eat grapes without getting sick or dying. they
love them,
> dont have an aversion which is expected if they were routinely toxic as
evolution
> takes care of instilling avoidance. why grapes may be toxic for some
dogs is not
> understood. SO FAR, no toxic compounds have been found in grapes. No
scientific
> studies have been done. Ingrid
>
> "Val" <ya-shur@yabetcha.com> wrote:
> >http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/raisins.asp
The vet's article of one case is not a controlled study and the fact that
the vet says there are no published studies on this topic (when there are)
indicates you're quite right that this particular vet's testimony is
evidence of nothing at all. And the fact that a thousand lay articles can
be found hysterically warning about poisonous grapes should be taken
seriously only after checking for authentic sources of this information
beyond grandma-told-me or i-heard-it-somewhere.
However, if that vet HAD bothered to do a search for support data, there's
plenty.
Eubig et al in the Journeal of Veterinarian Internal Medicine Sep/Oct 2005
reports on 43 such cases in the AnTox database 1992-2002. All the reported
dogs had the same clinical signs of poisoning (vomiting, diarrhea,
lethargy & loss of apetite) & the majority were testably hypercalcemic &
hyperphosphatemic. So there is a clear-cut no-guesses-required method of
assessing toxicity from grapes or raisins. The Eubig study could not
identify the specific mechanism for renal failure, but the toxic cause &
effect were unquestionable.
Morrow et all in the Journal of Veterinary Diagnostic Investigation, May
2005, looked at ten cases of renal failure in dogs caused by injestion of
grapes or raisens. These ten dogs had severe symptoms of renal
degeneration or necrosis. Very aggressive treatment & care was no
guarantee of a good outcome. Again the specific toxin(s) could not be
identified but that something in grapes caused calcium homeostasis & renal
system shut-down was unquestionable.
Elwood & Whatling in Veterinary Record April 8 2006 looks at several
reported cases of renal failure in dogs associated with raisins & grapes.
A half dozen other studies could be cited in veterinarian & nutrition
journals. While your statement "no toxic compounds have been found" is at
least partially true, several have been named as possibilities. There are
too many flavinoids in grapes, any one of which alone or in combination
could be the culprit, & since it's not believed to impact human health
there is never going to be sufficient funding to isolate them all & test
them one by one on dogs. The toxicity to dogs of grapes & raisins,
however, is unquestionable, even though the specific flavinoid or
flavinoid compound is unknown.
So too the specific triggering mechanism in the the animal's body is
poorly understood, but seems to be related to platelet production, heart
response, & ability to expell calcium. The mechanism is unclear but the
ultimate outcome (renal failure) is not in question.
Grapes or raisins have to be ingested in large quantities to have any
effect at all. There's probably no risk in giving them one grape now &
then, but if they went through a whole box crate of them, severe illness &
death could be expected.
Other studies show the same response of renal failure in dogs that have
eaten lilies or lily bulbs. So too garlic & onions can cause toxicity in
dogs (and cats) if eaten in a large enough quantity, but if you gave a dog
a small bit a table scrap of something cooked with onions included, it
would come nowhere near a toxic level. Brocoli if it exceeds 10% of diet &
especially when it reaches around 25% of diet is also notably toxic to
dogs & many other animals, but in small amounts MIGHT actually be
beneficial.
Knowing the possibilities I would not give my wee beloved Daigoro any
grapes. But if he grabbed just one without permission & gobbled it down, I
would not hasten him to the veterinarian.
I applaud your cynicism & suspicion that urban folklore is at work. But
careful review of the scientific data indicates that for once the common
masses have learned something that's correct.
-paghat the ratgirl
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#15: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-25 23:53:48 by paghatSPAM-ME-NOT
Cocoa mulch does have four times the theobromine as a chocolate bar, but
only a fraction of what's in bakers chocolate. Once ounce of Baker's
chocolate could kill a dog. By comparison the cocoa mulch's degree of
danger is slight because a dog would have to be neurotic to eat enough
mulch to get more than mildly ill.
The often repeated baseless data that 2 to 5 ounces of cocoa mulch can
kill an average sized dog is false, & was generated by PETA & widely
distributed during a political campaign against Foreman's & Home Depot.
PETA simultaneously alleged that cocoa mulch kills cats, which is
impossible. The 5 ounce measure has often been repeated since, but an
independent analysis done by University of Illinois professors Wiesbrook
& Gwaltney-Brant said it would take 12 ounces to kill a dog, & even that
is an estimate that sought to err on the side of caution.
A lethal dose of theobromine from milk chocolate candy would require a dog
in the 50 to 65 pound range to eat FOUR POUNDS to reach a toxic level.
This is why no child ever killed its dog sharing one little piece of
chocolate, unwise though that sharing may be. Cocoa mulch has four times
the theobromine of milk chocolate, therefore it is easy to speculate that
one pound of mulch would be just as toxic to the dog -- if only you can
convince the dog to eat a pound of shells with so great an ease as you
might get it to eat a chocolate bar. Only a neurotic dog would get so
far, so the "fact" in this case is that a very unhappy miserable dog with
neurotic behaviors including devouring cocoa mulch just might kill
itself.
But there is no question that dogs have presented to veterinarians with
cocoa mulch poisoning, though outright deaths are extremely rare. Deaths
are extremely common for dogs that got into pastries or fudge made from
pure Bakers chocolate, however.
If a large dog could manage to stomach between twelve ounces & a pound of
cocoa mulch, it probably would die. That much is true. Pile up that much
of the stuff & then try to imagine any dog finishing it off! What are
the serious odds of a dog eating three-quarters of a pound to a pound of
such lightweight stuff at a go? We're talking about a threat to dogs that
are already psychologically damaged, not to well-adjusted dogs.
-paghat the ratgirl
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#16: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-26 02:27:00 by enigma
paghatSPAM-ME-NOT@netscape.net (paghat) wrote in
news:paghatSPAM-ME-NOT-2506061453480001@soggy72.drizzle.com:
> If a large dog could manage to stomach between twelve
> ounces & a pound of cocoa mulch, it probably would die.
> That much is true. Pile up that much of the stuff & then
> try to imagine any dog finishing it off! What are the
> serious odds of a dog eating three-quarters of a pound to a
> pound of such lightweight stuff at a go? We're talking
> about a threat to dogs that are already psychologically
> damaged, not to well-adjusted dogs.
i had a German Shorthair Pointer that finished off an entire
5 pound bag of sunflower seeds once. it didn't kill him but i
bet he wished he was dead... he had quite the impaction.
fortunately there was no cocoa hull mulch back then, or he
would have been the dog to eat enough of it to kill himself.
he wasn't neurotic, but he *was* brain damaged (no pain
response & grand mal seizures)
nice to see you back, paghat.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell
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#17: Re: cocoa shells
Posted on 2006-06-26 15:25:42 by dr-solo
sorry, Family Canidae. most fox are genus Vulpes, jackals, coyotes, dogs, wolves are
canis.
http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bnatres/fishwild/pdf/coyotes. pdf
There was a science program on cable about wolves showed them raiding a grape orchard
and it was stated then that wolves can be a problem for some growers as wolves have a
sweet tooth.
http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=18
I am a strong advocate of feeding dogs species appropriate foods, that is, raw meaty
bones which are dogs natural food. If the onions and garlic arent cooked (which
makes them sweet) a dog probably wouldnt eat them, at least none of my dogs touch raw
onions that fall to the floor while I cook. and none dig up raw onions, leeks, dont
nibble my chives. Only cooked food is "human food", everything raw is natural for
all other animals. What they eat in the wild is "natural" and most animals dont make
"mistakes" in what they eat. Ingrid
enigma <enigma@empire.net> wrote:
> first, foxes are not canus sp. so we'll not discuss them.
>where & when have you seen wolves eating grapes?
> i don't care if you feed your dog grapes, because it's not my
>dog. some idiots give thier dogs onions & garlic. they're the
>ones who have short lived dogs or high vet bills. not my
>problem.
> but for those who may be interested, it is nice to know what
>human food items should not be given to dogs because they can
>prove fatal.
>lee
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
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