#1: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 05:20:34 by d
I think I remeber this topic coming up here once before and i wanted to
ask for some advice. I am getting ready to swtich from tap water to
reverse osmosis water for my greenhouse. Right now I run the tap water
through a dosamatic and use a diliuted fertilizer on every watering. My
current water demand is about 5 gallons per minute for 5 to 10 mintues.
I plan on using a 300 gallon water tank that will store up to 150
gallons of RO water and have room for up to 150 gallons of rain water.
I am trying to work out how I am going to pump the water to the
greenhouse though. I need about 5 gpm but would like to have about
10gpm since I plan on doubling the size of the greenhouse this year. I
would like a system that kicks on with a pressure switch rather than a
simple sump pump that I have to plug in each time. I was looking at
some setups at lowes that involve a 1/2hp pump and a pressure tank of up
to 42 gallons. I dont think I need a pressure tank that big but thats
what the guy there suggested.
I also saw that Harbor Freight has a 3/4 hp setup with a 5 gallon tank
for $80, thats about 4 or 5 times less than the setup from lowes. I
know that harbor freight normally sells junk, anyone have any experience
with this setup?
I would appreciate anyones advice.
Thanks
Dustin
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#2: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 08:01:20 by Pat Brennan
Dustin,
Before you switch to RO, what level of alkalinity measured in parts per
million (ppm) of calcium carbonate equivalents (CaCO3) are you planning to
run at and how do you plan to add the alkalinity? Do you understand the
formation of carbolic acid in RO water exposed to air? Do you know how to
do leachate pH tests and have you generated a good tap water leachate
baseline to compare to the values generated after the switch to RO? If you
answered no or don't know to any of these, be very careful. Although RO can
solve all sorts of water problems, it can also make plants very sick in less
than a year. After you make the switch, watch leaf color very carefully, it
will be the first sign you have problems (leachate tests should identify
problems long before they show up in the leaves).
As for the pump systems, $80 seems like a very good price but in the right
ballpark. Northern has a 1/2 horse pump for $40 and a 6 gallon tank for
$35. Add a $10 pressure switch and you are there. You get what you pay
for. A six gallon tank has a .6 gallon drawdown. Start with a full tank,
draw off .6 gallons and on comes the pump. I expect the cheap pump will not
be able to get .6 gallons into the tank while the hose is on so I do not
think the pump cycling on and off will be an issue. But watering will be
like the hose is connected directly to the pump except the pump will turn
off when the hose is turned off. Hey isn't that what you were looking for?
I expect the system will come set at 20/40 psi which I think is way too low.
A lot of the water breakers, such as the 'red head', do not work right at 20
psi. The pressure switch has two nuts that allow you to change these
setting. Go slowly and start by only changing the pump kick in pressure
point. 30/50 will be a big improvement but may require that you add air to
the pressure tank. I run at 45/60 which is not possible with the $40
Northern pump.
I have trashed a couple of the $40 pumps because fine gravel from the
greenhouse floor got into the water storage tank. A filter between the
storage tank and the pump would help. I have not had this problem with
better pumps.
The $80 system will come with a pressure switch. Take it off and replace it
with a pressure switch with low pressure shutoff. They cost less than $20
and sooner or later it will save the pump by turning the system off when the
storage tank is empty. Neither cheap or expensive pumps like to be run dry.
Cheap one really don't like it.
Pat
Report this message |
#3: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 12:05:48 by Ray
Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture there.
The continual use of RO water won't lead to any problems whatsoever... IF
you are smart enough to manage the nutrients and pH well, and that can be
easily done by using a fertilizer formulation designed for pure water and
with the right nutrients.
For about 5 or 6 years I accomplished that by using Dyna-Gro "Grow" formula
and adjusting the pH by the addition of ProTekt. For the last 28 months, I
have used the GreenCare "Orchid Special" for pure water at the designed rate
of 125 ppm N and my plants couldn't be healthier or happier. (I don't have
the wherewithal to do most of those tests Pat mentioned, so I let the
fertilizer companies take care of them for me.)
If you fail to use the RO water intelligently, Pat is correct about
nutritional issues, brought about by either the lack of nutrients being
present or them being unavailable due to pH issues. That latter case can
also lead to certain ion toxicity too, as they are variably available
depending on the pH, and you can actually poison the plants by unknowingly
putting too much of certain ions in solution.
As far as delivering the nutrient solution, first let me suggest that the
small tank that usually comes with an RO system is of little value, if any.
It is a feeble attempt (for horticultural purposes anyway) to convert it to
an "on-demand" system.
I prefer to think of it in two segments: putting the RO in the storage tank
and not overflowing, and pumping it through the dosing pump and hose to my
plants.
For the first part, I attached a simple float valve to the RO system outlet
in the tank. When it's full and flow is cut off, back-pressure in the RO
system triggers an included upstream pressure cutoff valve so the membrane
does not sit there under pressure at idle. (I'd check to see if your
discount system has one, as it prolongs the membrane life.)
As for delivering the "final product" to your plants, I have tried two ways.
The first was a simple in-line pump. Simple and reliable, I had to turn it
on for watering, not dally too much during the process to avoid overheating,
and sure had to remember to turn it off when I was done. My current setup
uses a well booster pump, complete with an anti-backflush valve, a 20-gallon
bladder tank and pressure switch. This was a 1/2 HP Home Depot
off-the-shelf unit, set up with the input coming from the bottom of the
storage tank and the output running through my dosing pump and onto a hose
(and mister, but that's an aside here).
As long as the hose end (or mister solenoid valve) is closed - I use
spring-loaded squeeze valves before the water wands - it is off. When
either is opened when watering, the bladder tank pushes away, and when its
internal pressure gets low, the pump comes on the repressurize it. Yeah, I
invested about $150, but it's reliable and I don't even have to think about
it.
--
Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
news:11gledv79ee311c@corp.supernews.com...
> Dustin,
>
> Before you switch to RO, what level of alkalinity measured in parts per
> million (ppm) of calcium carbonate equivalents (CaCO3) are you planning to
> run at and how do you plan to add the alkalinity? Do you understand the
> formation of carbolic acid in RO water exposed to air? Do you know how to
> do leachate pH tests and have you generated a good tap water leachate
> baseline to compare to the values generated after the switch to RO? If
> you answered no or don't know to any of these, be very careful. Although
> RO can solve all sorts of water problems, it can also make plants very
> sick in less than a year. After you make the switch, watch leaf color
> very carefully, it will be the first sign you have problems (leachate
> tests should identify problems long before they show up in the leaves).
>
> As for the pump systems, $80 seems like a very good price but in the right
> ballpark. Northern has a 1/2 horse pump for $40 and a 6 gallon tank for
> $35. Add a $10 pressure switch and you are there. You get what you pay
> for. A six gallon tank has a .6 gallon drawdown. Start with a full tank,
> draw off .6 gallons and on comes the pump. I expect the cheap pump will
> not be able to get .6 gallons into the tank while the hose is on so I do
> not think the pump cycling on and off will be an issue. But watering will
> be like the hose is connected directly to the pump except the pump will
> turn off when the hose is turned off. Hey isn't that what you were
> looking for?
>
> I expect the system will come set at 20/40 psi which I think is way too
> low. A lot of the water breakers, such as the 'red head', do not work
> right at 20 psi. The pressure switch has two nuts that allow you to
> change these setting. Go slowly and start by only changing the pump kick
> in pressure point. 30/50 will be a big improvement but may require that
> you add air to the pressure tank. I run at 45/60 which is not possible
> with the $40 Northern pump.
>
> I have trashed a couple of the $40 pumps because fine gravel from the
> greenhouse floor got into the water storage tank. A filter between the
> storage tank and the pump would help. I have not had this problem with
> better pumps.
>
> The $80 system will come with a pressure switch. Take it off and replace
> it with a pressure switch with low pressure shutoff. They cost less than
> $20 and sooner or later it will save the pump by turning the system off
> when the storage tank is empty. Neither cheap or expensive pumps like to
> be run dry. Cheap one really don't like it.
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
Report this message |
#4: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 14:56:25 by d
Yeah, Pat's post did seem a little bit scary. I plan on using the same
fertilizer as you Ray and I am hoping that it work to correct the pH for
me as well.
Thanks for the tips, it looks like the pressure tank and pump is the way
to go.
Dustin
Ray <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote:
> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture there.
>
> The continual use of RO water won't lead to any problems whatsoever... IF
> you are smart enough to manage the nutrients and pH well, and that can be
> easily done by using a fertilizer formulation designed for pure water and
> with the right nutrients.
>
> For about 5 or 6 years I accomplished that by using Dyna-Gro "Grow" formula
> and adjusting the pH by the addition of ProTekt. For the last 28 months, I
> have used the GreenCare "Orchid Special" for pure water at the designed rate
> of 125 ppm N and my plants couldn't be healthier or happier. (I don't have
> the wherewithal to do most of those tests Pat mentioned, so I let the
> fertilizer companies take care of them for me.)
>
> If you fail to use the RO water intelligently, Pat is correct about
> nutritional issues, brought about by either the lack of nutrients being
> present or them being unavailable due to pH issues. That latter case can
> also lead to certain ion toxicity too, as they are variably available
> depending on the pH, and you can actually poison the plants by unknowingly
> putting too much of certain ions in solution.
>
> As far as delivering the nutrient solution, first let me suggest that the
> small tank that usually comes with an RO system is of little value, if any.
> It is a feeble attempt (for horticultural purposes anyway) to convert it to
> an "on-demand" system.
>
> I prefer to think of it in two segments: putting the RO in the storage tank
> and not overflowing, and pumping it through the dosing pump and hose to my
> plants.
>
> For the first part, I attached a simple float valve to the RO system outlet
> in the tank. When it's full and flow is cut off, back-pressure in the RO
> system triggers an included upstream pressure cutoff valve so the membrane
> does not sit there under pressure at idle. (I'd check to see if your
> discount system has one, as it prolongs the membrane life.)
>
> As for delivering the "final product" to your plants, I have tried two ways.
> The first was a simple in-line pump. Simple and reliable, I had to turn it
> on for watering, not dally too much during the process to avoid overheating,
> and sure had to remember to turn it off when I was done. My current setup
> uses a well booster pump, complete with an anti-backflush valve, a 20-gallon
> bladder tank and pressure switch. This was a 1/2 HP Home Depot
> off-the-shelf unit, set up with the input coming from the bottom of the
> storage tank and the output running through my dosing pump and onto a hose
> (and mister, but that's an aside here).
>
> As long as the hose end (or mister solenoid valve) is closed - I use
> spring-loaded squeeze valves before the water wands - it is off. When
> either is opened when watering, the bladder tank pushes away, and when its
> internal pressure gets low, the pump comes on the repressurize it. Yeah, I
> invested about $150, but it's reliable and I don't even have to think about
> it.
Report this message |
#5: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 15:56:06 by Pat Brennan
"Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
news:L6udnawTqO69aJfeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture there.
> snip
I know three growers who have used RO water without any problems. Ray is
one of them. I know six growers who have cooked plants with RO. I am one
of them. Ray used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water with great results for
years. I used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water and after 3 months my substrate
pH was sitting at 3.6. MSU fertilizer makers do not seem to be concerned
with adding alkalinity to RO water, while a similar formulation from Jack
Peters suggests it very strongly. I am of the school that thinks alkalinity
should be added back into RO water, Ray is not. Why the differences? I do
not know. This is not an opinion thing, both Ray's knowledge and my own
have been learned first hand with years of growing. Maybe it has something
to due with the RO units, the substrate we use, or our watering habits. But
when you make the switch to RO either you will have no problems and I will
seem like a scum unnecessarily scaring people or your substrate pH will
crash and Ray will seem like an idiot. I hope I am the scum, but the
leachate tests will help identify problems before plants are damaged. I
think Ray will agree with me here, I highly recommend you read these
articles before you make the switch.
http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%205%20-%20final.pdf
http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%202%20-%20Water%20quality. pdf
Pat
Report this message |
#6: Re: R/O watering system - Attn. John Talpa
Posted on 2005-08-23 18:01:37 by wendy7
This is an interesting subject & why I love this group. You can get
contradictory info
but tried & true experiences.
We have a water man in our group, John Talpa, I think this is his name?
I had a small RO system set up but it didn't work properly as we didn't test
the main incoming water pressure from the street, it was not correct so had
a mix of water.
--
Cheers Wendy
Remove PETERPAN for email reply
"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
news:11gma869hrihd54@corp.supernews.com...
> "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
> news:L6udnawTqO69aJfeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture
>> there.
>> snip
>
> I know three growers who have used RO water without any problems. Ray is
> one of them. I know six growers who have cooked plants with RO. I am one
> of them. Ray used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water with great results for
> years. I used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water and after 3 months my
> substrate pH was sitting at 3.6. MSU fertilizer makers do not seem to be
> concerned with adding alkalinity to RO water, while a similar formulation
> from Jack Peters suggests it very strongly. I am of the school that thinks
> alkalinity should be added back into RO water, Ray is not. Why the
> differences? I do not know. This is not an opinion thing, both Ray's
> knowledge and my own have been learned first hand with years of growing.
> Maybe it has something to due with the RO units, the substrate we use, or
> our watering habits. But when you make the switch to RO either you will
> have no problems and I will seem like a scum unnecessarily scaring people
> or your substrate pH will crash and Ray will seem like an idiot. I hope I
> am the scum, but the leachate tests will help identify problems before
> plants are damaged. I think Ray will agree with me here, I highly
> recommend you read these articles before you make the switch.
>
> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%205%20-%20final.pdf
>
> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%202%20-%20Water%20quality. pdf
>
> Pat
>
Report this message |
#7: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-23 23:28:23 by Ray
Pat,
Out of curiosity, at what strengths were you using the Dyna-Gro products? I
used about 1 teaspoon per gallon of each, which gave me a pH of about 6.3
and a nitrogen loading of about 100 ppm.
I had considered that maybe the major difference was the substrate itself,
as I grow a lot in PrimeAgra in S/H culture, but I also have lots of plants
in sphagnum, in CHC/charcoal/perlite, and in baskets with little or no
medium, and I didn't have any such problems.
This is most curious....
Oh yeah, one more thing. How can sharing your experience make you a
scum???? I think it has led to an interesting discussion!
--
Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
news:11gma869hrihd54@corp.supernews.com...
> "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
> news:L6udnawTqO69aJfeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture
>> there.
>> snip
>
> I know three growers who have used RO water without any problems. Ray is
> one of them. I know six growers who have cooked plants with RO. I am one
> of them. Ray used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water with great results for
> years. I used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water and after 3 months my
> substrate pH was sitting at 3.6. MSU fertilizer makers do not seem to be
> concerned with adding alkalinity to RO water, while a similar formulation
> from Jack Peters suggests it very strongly. I am of the school that thinks
> alkalinity should be added back into RO water, Ray is not. Why the
> differences? I do not know. This is not an opinion thing, both Ray's
> knowledge and my own have been learned first hand with years of growing.
> Maybe it has something to due with the RO units, the substrate we use, or
> our watering habits. But when you make the switch to RO either you will
> have no problems and I will seem like a scum unnecessarily scaring people
> or your substrate pH will crash and Ray will seem like an idiot. I hope I
> am the scum, but the leachate tests will help identify problems before
> plants are damaged. I think Ray will agree with me here, I highly
> recommend you read these articles before you make the switch.
>
> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%205%20-%20final.pdf
>
> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%202%20-%20Water%20quality. pdf
>
> Pat
>
Report this message |
#8: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-24 03:00:03 by d
99% of my plants are mounted on cork or treefern and I water everyday
most of the year. I wonder what role the substrate will play in my
case.
Dustin
Ray <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote:
> Pat,
>
> Out of curiosity, at what strengths were you using the Dyna-Gro products? I
> used about 1 teaspoon per gallon of each, which gave me a pH of about 6.3
> and a nitrogen loading of about 100 ppm.
>
> I had considered that maybe the major difference was the substrate itself,
> as I grow a lot in PrimeAgra in S/H culture, but I also have lots of plants
> in sphagnum, in CHC/charcoal/perlite, and in baskets with little or no
> medium, and I didn't have any such problems.
>
> This is most curious....
>
> Oh yeah, one more thing. How can sharing your experience make you a
> scum???? I think it has led to an interesting discussion!
Report this message |
#9: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-24 11:37:08 by Ray
If I'm not mistaken, reaction with the substrate is related to several
factors - the chemical makeup of the substrate, both inherent and what it
becomes when it has absorbed stuff from its environment, the chemical makeup
of the nutrient solution used, the time they are in contact with each other,
and temperature.
Considering the solution is basically in contact with the mounts for a
relatively short period of time, and you're refreshing the system on a daily
basis, I suspect that your plants are essentially seeing only what's in the
solution. That is, little to no influence by the mount - especially in the
case of cork.
Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
"Dustin " <d@d.com> wrote in message news:1h1rmaj.10cx5sk1q627ktN%d@d.com...
> 99% of my plants are mounted on cork or treefern and I water everyday
> most of the year. I wonder what role the substrate will play in my
> case.
>
> Dustin
>
>
> Ray <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote:
>
>> Pat,
>>
>> Out of curiosity, at what strengths were you using the Dyna-Gro products?
>> I
>> used about 1 teaspoon per gallon of each, which gave me a pH of about 6.3
>> and a nitrogen loading of about 100 ppm.
>>
>> I had considered that maybe the major difference was the substrate
>> itself,
>> as I grow a lot in PrimeAgra in S/H culture, but I also have lots of
>> plants
>> in sphagnum, in CHC/charcoal/perlite, and in baskets with little or no
>> medium, and I didn't have any such problems.
>>
>> This is most curious....
>>
>> Oh yeah, one more thing. How can sharing your experience make you a
>> scum???? I think it has led to an interesting discussion!
Report this message |
#10: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-24 13:50:40 by Pat Brennan
Ray,
I was running 100 ppm nitrogen for the Dyna-Gro you use more often. I think
I was running a lower ppm of nitrogen for the Bloom formulation. I would
then add enough ProTech to get me where I wanted to be in terms of pH. I
started using the stuff at a pH of 6.8. As my leachate did not improve I
increased the pH. Before I gave up with Dyna-Gro I was running it at a pH
7.6 - 7.8. (at that point I was using more than just ProTech to adjust the
pH). It was a most madding time as no matter what pH I started with my
leachate pH continued to drive down.
Although I had some damage to my Paphs and Phrags in a normal bark based
mix, it was the Phals in moss that looked the worst and were giving the
lowest leachate reading. Within the Phals, it seemed that the plants in the
older mix gave worst reading then freshly repotted stuff. I did not have
the time or mindset to do a controlled, double blind study. I really do not
have remember having any problems with my mounted stuff or with Vandas just
in baskets. They were fed when the greenhouses were getting watered and got
clear water the other days.
Pat
"Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
news:4PCdnQOa5I-7CJbeRVn-3A@comcast.com...
> Pat,
>
> Out of curiosity, at what strengths were you using the Dyna-Gro products?
> I
> used about 1 teaspoon per gallon of each, which gave me a pH of about 6.3
> and a nitrogen loading of about 100 ppm.
>
> I had considered that maybe the major difference was the substrate itself,
> as I grow a lot in PrimeAgra in S/H culture, but I also have lots of
> plants
> in sphagnum, in CHC/charcoal/perlite, and in baskets with little or no
> medium, and I didn't have any such problems.
>
> This is most curious....
>
> Oh yeah, one more thing. How can sharing your experience make you a
> scum???? I think it has led to an interesting discussion!
>
> --
>
> Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
> Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
>
>
> "Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
> news:11gma869hrihd54@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
>> news:L6udnawTqO69aJfeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>>> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture
>>> there.
>>> snip
>>
>> I know three growers who have used RO water without any problems. Ray is
>> one of them. I know six growers who have cooked plants with RO. I am
>> one
>> of them. Ray used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water with great results for
>> years. I used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water and after 3 months my
>> substrate pH was sitting at 3.6. MSU fertilizer makers do not seem to be
>> concerned with adding alkalinity to RO water, while a similar formulation
>> from Jack Peters suggests it very strongly. I am of the school that
>> thinks
>> alkalinity should be added back into RO water, Ray is not. Why the
>> differences? I do not know. This is not an opinion thing, both Ray's
>> knowledge and my own have been learned first hand with years of growing.
>> Maybe it has something to due with the RO units, the substrate we use, or
>> our watering habits. But when you make the switch to RO either you will
>> have no problems and I will seem like a scum unnecessarily scaring people
>> or your substrate pH will crash and Ray will seem like an idiot. I hope
>> I
>> am the scum, but the leachate tests will help identify problems before
>> plants are damaged. I think Ray will agree with me here, I highly
>> recommend you read these articles before you make the switch.
>>
>> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%205%20-%20final.pdf
>>
>> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%202%20-%20Water%20quality. pdf
>>
>> Pat
>>
>
>
>
Report this message |
#11: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-25 01:38:39 by Ray
If I read that correctly, Pat, I would guess that the RO water played no
role in your experience, but that you "over-alkalinized" things, probably
because - as others have helped me see - leachate pH control is not overly
reliable with orchids.
There is a thread on the Semi-Hydro forum discussing the fact that the
reservoir pH can drop to really scarily-low levels - 3.7 being one I recall.
I never did really figure out exactly what might be happening based upon my
theoretical suppositions relating to gas exchange, carbon dioxide
absorption, etc., but more recently I have heard that [some/all?] orchids
have the capability to lower the pH of the substrate in the root zone,
apparently to force the dissolution of certain metallic ions, which can then
be absorbed.
--
Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
news:11gon9238suqb73@corp.supernews.com...
> Ray,
>
> I was running 100 ppm nitrogen for the Dyna-Gro you use more often. I
> think I was running a lower ppm of nitrogen for the Bloom formulation. I
> would then add enough ProTech to get me where I wanted to be in terms of
> pH. I started using the stuff at a pH of 6.8. As my leachate did not
> improve I increased the pH. Before I gave up with Dyna-Gro I was running
> it at a pH 7.6 - 7.8. (at that point I was using more than just ProTech
> to adjust the pH). It was a most madding time as no matter what pH I
> started with my leachate pH continued to drive down.
>
> Although I had some damage to my Paphs and Phrags in a normal bark based
> mix, it was the Phals in moss that looked the worst and were giving the
> lowest leachate reading. Within the Phals, it seemed that the plants in
> the older mix gave worst reading then freshly repotted stuff. I did not
> have the time or mindset to do a controlled, double blind study. I really
> do not have remember having any problems with my mounted stuff or with
> Vandas just in baskets. They were fed when the greenhouses were getting
> watered and got clear water the other days.
>
> Pat
>
>
> "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
> news:4PCdnQOa5I-7CJbeRVn-3A@comcast.com...
>> Pat,
>>
>> Out of curiosity, at what strengths were you using the Dyna-Gro products?
>> I
>> used about 1 teaspoon per gallon of each, which gave me a pH of about 6.3
>> and a nitrogen loading of about 100 ppm.
>>
>> I had considered that maybe the major difference was the substrate
>> itself,
>> as I grow a lot in PrimeAgra in S/H culture, but I also have lots of
>> plants
>> in sphagnum, in CHC/charcoal/perlite, and in baskets with little or no
>> medium, and I didn't have any such problems.
>>
>> This is most curious....
>>
>> Oh yeah, one more thing. How can sharing your experience make you a
>> scum???? I think it has led to an interesting discussion!
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
>> Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
>>
>>
>> "Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
>> news:11gma869hrihd54@corp.supernews.com...
>>> "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com> wrote in message
>>> news:L6udnawTqO69aJfeRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>>>> Whoa!!! I think Pat has unnecessarily painted a real scary picture
>>>> there.
>>>> snip
>>>
>>> I know three growers who have used RO water without any problems. Ray
>>> is
>>> one of them. I know six growers who have cooked plants with RO. I am
>>> one
>>> of them. Ray used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water with great results for
>>> years. I used Dyna-Gro/ProTekt in RO water and after 3 months my
>>> substrate pH was sitting at 3.6. MSU fertilizer makers do not seem to
>>> be
>>> concerned with adding alkalinity to RO water, while a similar
>>> formulation
>>> from Jack Peters suggests it very strongly. I am of the school that
>>> thinks
>>> alkalinity should be added back into RO water, Ray is not. Why the
>>> differences? I do not know. This is not an opinion thing, both Ray's
>>> knowledge and my own have been learned first hand with years of growing.
>>> Maybe it has something to due with the RO units, the substrate we use,
>>> or
>>> our watering habits. But when you make the switch to RO either you will
>>> have no problems and I will seem like a scum unnecessarily scaring
>>> people
>>> or your substrate pH will crash and Ray will seem like an idiot. I hope
>>> I
>>> am the scum, but the leachate tests will help identify problems before
>>> plants are damaged. I think Ray will agree with me here, I highly
>>> recommend you read these articles before you make the switch.
>>>
>>> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%205%20-%20final.pdf
>>>
>>> http://www.firstrays.com/PDF/Part%202%20-%20Water%20quality. pdf
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Report this message |
#12: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-25 03:35:40 by Pat Brennan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.orchids
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: R/O watering system
> If I read that correctly, Pat, I would guess that the RO water played no
> role in your experience, but that you "over-alkalinized" things, probably
> because - as others have helped me see - leachate pH control is not overly
> reliable with orchids.
>
Hey Ray,
You would be guessing wrong, but thanks. Thanks to help from Va Tech hort
department, extensions services of the states of MD, VA, NC, and CA, Karen
at Peters Lab, and the tech department of Scotts I know exactly what
happened. Dr. Joyce Latimer at Tech personally handled my case and was the
one dealing with the other state's extension services. Looking for help,
Joyce presented my case at a national extension meeting. The state did this
to me, they were most helpful in resolving it.
Pat
Report this message |
#13: Re: R/O watering system
Posted on 2005-08-25 13:14:24 by Ray
Interesting, but I'm still not certain why you would have the problem while
others don't.
I have been happier (i.e., the plants have been...) since switching to the
MSU fertilizer for RO. Maybe that formula addresses the issues you had
better than I realized.
Thanks for the input.
--
Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!
"Pat Brennan" <orchidsNOT@rica.net> wrote in message
news:11gq7ju9s8sh620@corp.supernews.com...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray" <raybark@firstrays.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.gardens.orchids
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: R/O watering system
>
>
>> If I read that correctly, Pat, I would guess that the RO water played no
>> role in your experience, but that you "over-alkalinized" things, probably
>> because - as others have helped me see - leachate pH control is not
>> overly reliable with orchids.
>>
>
> Hey Ray,
>
> You would be guessing wrong, but thanks. Thanks to help from Va Tech hort
> department, extensions services of the states of MD, VA, NC, and CA, Karen
> at Peters Lab, and the tech department of Scotts I know exactly what
> happened. Dr. Joyce Latimer at Tech personally handled my case and was
> the one dealing with the other state's extension services. Looking for
> help, Joyce presented my case at a national extension meeting. The state
> did this to me, they were most helpful in resolving it.
>
> Pat
>
Report this message |
